To think this midwife sounds a right bellend?!

[MyBreadIsEggy]

I'm watching a documentary about midwives in a big women's hospital. A woman has been in the hospital for a few days, multiple attempts at induction (she has a medical condition that means the baby needs to be delivered) and absolutely zero progress has been made with getting labour going. She's getting increasingly more hacked off about being stuck in hospital with nothing happening, and a midwife actually just said: "well think of it this way, if you're still here, then you're increasing your chances of having a normal delivery, not just ducking out and having the c-section" What the fuck?!
I've had a vaginal delivery, but I can't imagine major abdominal surgery is a walk in the park! To hear such an experience being described as "ducking out" by someone who's supposed to be supporting women at their most vulnerable has really riled me!!

You can hardly describe multiple attempts at induction as being 'the least intervention' though eddie

Sections are not 10x more expensive, particularly once aftercare for birth injuries is taken into account. The effect on mental health is also woefully under researched and under-reported. So you can save the NHS £70 but leave a mother with life-long issues. .....bargain....

And CS is very definitely the healthiest option for baby in all of the cases where an EMCS is necessary.

My VB damaged me and DD1 far more than the ELCS delivery of DD2 did to both of us. It just isn't as simplistic as the simple lessons you've set out above.

Regardless of the above there is no other area of healthcare where 'what is best for you' is foisted upon you quite so much as giving birth. Mothers who don't want another induction/instrumental delivery/multiple days of labour/increased incontinence risk should be listened to and their wishes acted upon, not lectured with what midwives have been taught is best for them.

Although I agree that was very badly worded, I don't think (most) midwives are being sadistic or power hungry, etc, in preferring the birth option with the least intervention.

The problem comes when they try and enforce that on the women in their care. That goes beyond preference, even when they are acting in what they believe to be someone's best interests based on not always accurate information.

eddie but my VB recovery was far slower, more painful and more complex than my CS recovery. I bf after ELCS with ease. After my VB my body was struggling, my baby was struggling, no milk until day 6 - without being fed formula by gastro-nasal tube DD1 may well be dead.

Stating what you have as the complete truth is just misleading. I was fed that line as a prospective first time mum and suffered badly as a result.

What the midwife said was thoughtless and unkind, especially given the high likelihood of that mum going in to have a c/s anyway.

But I'm conflicted about comparisons between c/s and labour. I think there are many women who believe they are 'easier' and much less painful even factoring in recovery. Hence the regular appearance of posts on the childbirth board here from women about getting a c/s on the NHS - the consensus among these women is that labour is terrifying and awful and they don't want to go through it.

And in the (rare) event you see a post from someone who is fearful of c/s you are guaranteed to see dozens of responses from women saying their c/s were a walk in the park, that they had quicker recoveries than their friends who had v/bs, to not listen to 'scare mongering' about c/s.

That's awful! My midwife was lovely and pregnant herself I had to be induced at 38 weeks due to a medical condition and after the pessary failed to do anything they took me to the labour ward and after 2 failed attempts to break my waters which was so painful I had to go on gas and air they offered an epidural but I refused I was actually in tears because I wanted to have a natural birth, a doctor then came in to try and break my waters for the 3rd time again that failed. The doctor told me I should just have a c-section as id probably end up having to have one anyway with no explanation and I would be in for days if they continued to try and induce me.

Worst mistake of my life I'm allergic to basically every pain killer except paracetamol so recovery was horrendous I lost so much weight for feeling sick as I was in so much pain.

I wish I had ignored the doctor and continued with the induction and tried to have a natural birth.

I felt so vulnerable at that point I just did what I thought was best but I think it was the easier option for them and not me. No one should be making crappy comments like that!

But Minifingerz so what of it is easier [for some]? Why is that a bad thing? Why should women be seen a 'copping out' if they choose that route with fully informed consent? And implying that there is a causal link between the level of the mother's suffering and the likelihood of a healthy baby just isn't correct.

It is culturally abhorrent to chastise or criticise women for wanting something that means they will suffer less.

Comparing VB and CS is inherently problematic to my mind.

VB has a chance of ending with no tears or stitches, some bruising, and an easy recovery. So it has a chance of the best birth outcome. Conversely it has a chance of third/fourth degree tears, incontinence, life long issues - so it has a chance at the worst outcome. CS sits somewhere in the middle and has a more reliable outcome.

My understanding is that CS tends to be better managed because it's surgery so there is the whole world of other surgery to draw on for best practice type ideas.

Whilst we are in a situation where VB births are so often poorly managed by people who care more about shifts ending than facilitating the best birth outcomes, CS's will often come out on top as the best outcome.

But removing the true best option - a well managed VB birth is not in the best interests of women. And saying that CS is better hides a whole world of shitty attitudes towards birth and women's bodies in general, to my mind.

I've had both, a terrible vb and 'good' c-section. Tbh I was left more emotionally scarred and terrified by the section. So much so I am now having my 3rd and am torn between which to go for. All the Mw's and specialists just assumed I'd have another section and are a bit pissed off I might not. It's been seen that the section will be easiest for everyone (err what about my recovery? And trauma?) and that me going for a vb is making life harder unnecessarily for everyone.

But removing the true best option - a well managed VB birth is not in the best interests of women.

Agree with a lot of your post, but your use of the term 'the true best option' is really problematic. There's not one true best option. It will vary. If we fail to comprehend that, we too are guilty of a shitty attitude. Plenty of women have no interest in a well managed VB and they have the same right to this attitude as a woman who very much wants one has to hers.

Apologies Hyacinth. Shitty wording. I meant the only option with the chance of the best physical outcome (in general, in the absense of other medical needs).

I was always terrified of having a section. Certainly doesn't appeal as the 'easy option' to me - the recovery alone sounds awful.

What an absolute swelling bellend

Disgraceful attitude. Especially when its looking more and more likely a c section will be necessary for the patient in question.

However I had a lovely planned c section with DD (my second), after the horrible vaginal delivery i had, had with DS. The planned c section was a walk in the park recovery wise too, especially compared to the vaginal birth recovery - which 4.5yrs down the line I still have problems from.

Other people find it the other way round and will have a much easier time with vaginal birth than a c section. There are so many variables.

There is no one size fits all when it comes to the best way to birth.

I think a good way to put it would be the preferred outcome for a great many women. This covers both the fact that some women will find surgical recovery easy even compared to the least complex of VBs, because humans vary and some people find certain types of recovery unusually hard or easy compared to others. And that a great many women, probably a majority, would have a well managed, straightforward VB as their first choice if they could pick.

I've had 2 ELCS, never a VB. 1st baby - after a difficult pregnancy, my prem baby wouldn't have been strong enough to survive a VB, so after a scan, booked me in for ELCS following day. Baby in NICU so the next day if I wanted to see him I had to walk there - agony doesn't even begin to describe it - but I did it otherwsie I wouldn't have seen him. Recovery was pretty good.

2nd baby also thought to be small (wasn't that bad in the end) delivered at 37 wks by ELCS as a precaution. Much harder recovery this time - sent home 2 days later with a 4 yr old to look after, wound got infected & opened twice and 6 months on still have pain on that side of my scar.

I can't comapre to VB - but ducking out? don't bloody think so. I still get comments how I haven't ever given birth "properly" especially as I never went in to labour. It really fucks me off sometimes, but then I did what was best for my babies and to me that's all that matters.

I did what was best for my babies and to me that's all that matters.

And that is all that should matter. You have given birth "properly", the fact there was medical intervention/medical delivery, to protect your babies and yourself, doesn't change the fact you gave birth to them.

Thanks MyDress

That is awful!!

I am currently in hospital with pre-eclampsia, waiting to be induced on 19 September.

I have to say, the midwives here have been simply amazing. Who knows what they say behind my back, but I have frankly been astonished at the high level of care and amazing communication... So maybe something is working?

I think this midwife's comments have been taken out of context here. Surely she meant that the woman had been wanting a normal birth and she was simply saying that she was working blooming hard to try and get it, even though she would have had her baby and all if she had opted for c/s? Not worded well, I agree, but I can see were she is coming from?

I often say 'well done' and 'didn't you do well' to women who birth with minimal pain relief etc, I don't mean that to degrade women who require more intervention, it is simply a statement to recognise the situation of the individual woman that I am speaking to. However taken out of context, it sounds as bad as the mw on the programme I guess.

I had my third baby vaginally despite her being breech and often have people say 'wow, that is amazing, well done' etc - I did it because I wanted to avoid a c/s at all costs because I was too frightened to have one - hardly something to be proud of! I guess we all say silly things at times to try and be nice. I should add, I wasn't a mw when I had her, I wouldn't be as frightened of a c/s now that I know more about it

Everyone should be proud of growing and birthing a baby, whatever the mode of delivery.

There isn't a context in which referring to a section as 'ducking out' is acceptable. If the MW meant what you're implying, that's what she should have said. Not something that has quite a different meaning. It's not ok.

I wouldn't describe it was an easy option! When I was having DD things started to go suddenly very wrong after being in slow back to back labour for the better part of a week - my waters had meconium, I wasn't progressing quickly, her heart rate was dropping hugely with each contraction and they suspected the cord was round her (it was - three times). We had two doctors in the room, and they very strongly advised a caesarean as they were concerned about DD.

It was an absolute no brainer to agree to an EMCS - but the midwife did remind me "but you do have the right to keep trying for a natural delivery..."

Er, no. When there are issues with my daughters heart rate and the consultant is advising an EMCS, I think we'll be going for that!

Wow RainyDay can't believe midwife thought it appropriate to say that to you - I think some of them are just batshit crazy - they have to be to come out with comments like that!

I had a c section. It wasn't even an emergency c-section, and the doctors did all they could to convince me out of it.

But I was having an induction. It wasn't going smoothly and so much had already happened that was mismanaged or confusing to me. I'd lost faith in the process. I was terrified for my baby. His heart rate kept disappearing and the emergency alarm was pressed... before his heart rate recovered. I had a very bad feeling, so I pushed and pushed through bitter tears and stopped the induction (which was by all accounts "working") and had a section.

He was born limp and needed resuscitation. Was everything okay before the section? Did I really "need" it? We'll never know. But I CHOSE it, based on what I thought was best for me and my baby. And I don't feel in the least bit sorry for that, "ducking out" or not.