To tell DP he cannot continue to be self employed I've had enough!

[EnoughIsEnough123]

Back story - DP is a tradesman, earned a healthy living for 15 years until the guy who regularly supplied him with work retired. For the last 4 years he's had to go it alone and it's been a nightmare. Work has been patchy, income unstable and unreliable. He had a good year two years ago until the guy he was working for also retired. He seems to be very good at what he does and always gets good feedback and recommendations but (and this will probably surprise a lot of people) but despite doing a good job people often try to shirk paying at then end or find fault in the work to reduce what they pay.

We have an 18 month old and a newborn and I've just discovered he's got £14k worth of debt which I knew nothing about. The debt has accumulated from (another) rough couple of years with unreliable work and income. He hasn't been paying his bank loan and credit cards and has been hiding it from me. We rent, supposed to be saving for a home, so we don't have any assets.

I'm so upset and so angry that he's allowed things to get this bad. I've asked him repeatedly to get a job, any job, that pays him a set regular wage but he says he's good at what he does. That's not the issue the issue is he isn't earning any money!!! I work full time and am currently on maternity leave. I've agreed to go back to work full time after just 3 months maternity leave because we need the money. I'm so fed up of holding everything together, I feel like the only responsible one. I will be back at work full time with a 3 month old and a 19 month old!

We've had a chat this morning which resulted in the usual tears (his) and him telling me he's failing us and he feels sorry for me and he's useless etc.... I've told him we don't have time for him to feel sorry for himself we need solutions and if he feels mentally unwell he needs to get help. I grew up with a dad with ongoing depression and anxiety, we never had any money, as kids we knew they struggled to pay bills etc and I won't have that upbringing for my children.

Has anyone been in a similar situation?

Have look at he housing association in your area - they often are desperate for tradesmen to do the repairs to their housing stock - okay its not bespoke cabinet making but the ones I have talked to have a pretty good wage and the tenants are usually grateful someone (anyone!) has turned up to fix something.

DH is 60 and since the age of 17 has been a self-employed plasterer . I don't understand what the OP's DP is doing wrong. DH is also very good at what he does and gets most of his work through recommendation, and from his website (shows photos of his work) Also over the years he has met other tradesmen on jobs who have recommended his services to customers of theirs, obviously this works both ways and DH recommends them to clients of his if their services are required.

We have had tough times usually when there has been a recession, but we managed okay whilst the kids were small with me being a SAHM or working part-time.

If he is good at what he does there must be some other reason for the debt especially if the OP is working.

Long term, if you claim tax credits, this is an unsustainable situation. They won't accept on Universal Credit transfer that he's working unless he's making a profit, and they will want full time at MW. There's also a LOT of extra stuff for self employed people, so that in itself will add stress.

Aside from that- I can quite understand where you're coming from, husband was made redundant and retrained and is now self employed, I find the lack of reliability immensely challenging (I am a carer so can't work), he doesn't really have the chance of employment in his field though as everyone is self employed. It's growing luckily, so it gets easier, and I've always felt that if he's working and making the effort then i don't have much of a right to complain.

But- and there's a big but here- the debt. That would entirely blow it for me I am afraid, and I'd be looking for some evidence he's serious about it all. It may be there are options- he may need a GP appointment if he's really down; he might be able to seek part time employed hours and combine with the SE temporarily. I'd need to see something though.

He may be very good at his trade, but just not good at the business end ( promoting himself, getting the jobs, organising his cash flow, bills etc). Running a business is a whole other thing to being a carpenter, hence he has been fine when employed by a single contractor (more like being an employee really) but flounders when he has to pick up bits and pieces. Could he try to get a job working for someone? A contractor or home improvement company? Companies like IKEA employ tradesmen to do fitted kitchens - I guess they might be self employed but they are given the jobs by the parent company and paid by them. Or could you help out with some of the 'office work'? Making sure jobs are invoiced etc.
I think people can be really hard to deal with, my Dad used to get an electrician out for odd jobs but that guy gave up doing domestic work because he said he just had too much hassle with not getting paid.

You need to tell him enough is enough. Get the 60k job the others on the site are on. He can still continue with his self employed jobs, if he has any spare time.
Tell him the woe is me is painful now and you both need practical solutions. This has got to stop.

He is NOT mentally unwell, which is the usual fallback excuse. He has a roof over his head and you as his security so its allowed him to continue to work irresponsibly

Ive been self-employed since 1997 and I know its rough out there particularly in recent years - gone are the glory days, lots of organisations who regularly booked me for work lost their funding; I have to self-generate work much more often than I did, but I love being self-employed so I keep going and I make it work

When its good, its good. When its not? I do casual work 2/3 times a week that doesnt impact on my self-employment ie bar work, agency I do not care - its all about that regular money coming in during slow periods. You just have to get on with it

Who does your DH's accounts? & why on earth does he allow people to take the piss re payment? Have you seen his invoices and contract templates?

There's so much free business advice out there including seminars and advice sessions, ongoing as well, that I was so grateful for when I started out and will still pop into occasionally. Can't your DH do same? We all need advice at times

Personally Im a "one woman band" I don't have time to be forever chasing payments and I won't get stung more than once by an organisation who withold payment. Only happened twice where I had to pursue CCJ and thats what I did, with no qualms. Business is business and if I spent months wheedling cajoling pleading with businesses Id go under. & I can't afford to.

Your DH isn't suited to solely self-employment, his temperament isn't right and he will drop you all in the shit. He could work for Taskrabbit or Handyman - I know 2 self-employed tradesmen who do that, in between their own work. Other things he can do too. If he doesn't want to get work in the slow periods well then you do have a huge problem

& its not one I think you should carry on your shoulders either, you are not a mule.. You work FT and have 2 DCs but with your man there you may as well have 3 DCs. I hope you can get all sorted out but your DH has to get realistic about life first

We all have the 'go and be an entrepreneur' message blared at us to much now. It doesn't take into account that some people are just not suited to being self employed. I know I'd be shit at it, even though I am intelligent, have skills etc. He has to get over that, swallow his pride and take a salaried job.

14k is a bit more than just head in the sand, isn't it?

'If he is good at what he does there must be some other reason for the debt especially if the OP is working'

I don't think so, it only takes one or two customers to go under and you can get in a mess- does depend on the industry though: DH is a Lighting Designer, much of his work is dependant on the existence of venues in our area (he does have sales sidelines). Limited market.

As for the MH- I doubt MH is a root cause and have no idea if it's relevant here, but struggling under debt can trigger low level issues and make it harder to address and crawl out of the mess. It's not an excuse or get out (well, unless severe and this isn't it),, but can be worth a chat with the GP. It's entirely impossible to know someone's case from afar, but it's often worth checking out when low motivation is a factor.

It may just be he's unsuited to SE, I'm often in awe at DH's self motivation; it wouldn't suit me at all. in which case I'd go for the 'just part time hours employed until it picks up' approach, as a gradual way back.

Being self-employed is not for everyone - DH is but I'm not sure if I could be
You can be good at what you do but still need motivation, organisation,a share of luck and be able to cope with a lot of stress!

It could be a bit demoralising for him to find a PAYE job - can he sub-contract to someone else on the trade or to an agency instead?

As a carpenter he doesn't need to just get "any" job and then go back to his trade, there's plenty of carpenter jobs, either temp contracts with agencies on day/hourly rates, or permanent positions with a salary. A quick search on Indeed.co.uk will give him plenty to apply for.

Hi op,

I own and run my own business and i've seen quite a few of my peers set up and then go under in the last few years unfortunately.

My initial thoughts would be;
He needs a bookkeeper, get a registered bookkeeper, it will cost you approx £160 pcm for a decent one who will do his payroll, credit control, deal with his taxes and keep an eye on his cashflow. They will use decent accounting software and he will be saving a huge amount of time and stress. It will reduce any potential for nasty tax / NI debt accruing as well.
It will help him see what is coming in, what is going out and work out what he needs to break even every month and to make a good profit every month. You need to have access to this info and the inital set up will tell you what is really going on. My worry is that he is trading basically insolvent which is why the debt is building up.

I really don't get how a skilled carpenter is earning £16k a year, is this after his business costs or does he still have to pay his overheads etc from that £16K. I would say this is the most worrying bit, even if he was an unskilled labourer he'd be earning more than that a year. Just to give you an idea, I pay my unskilled labourers around £90 a day in the South East. He should be on around £140 per day on average. (bespoke jobs will be worth more, some site work is worth a little less depending on what is required).
Does he turn up on time, does he get on with the other people on site or does he argue etc, does he really do a good job or is he feeding you a line? Does he make sure he wears the correct PPE? Something as simple as this could mean he will be asked to leave a site and won't be taken back by that company for any future work. Does he have the right insurances and CSCS card?

I would recommend he signs up to an agency supplying labour to the construction industry, he will get regular work and will pick up new contacts. He would still be self-employed so he can still pick and choose what he says yes to although at the moment he just needs to say yes to everything. There is such a lack of skilled labour at the moment there is no way he should be out of a job. Even if he can't find agency work as a carpenter he would still have the option to take work as a skilled / semi-skilled labourer.

my gut feeling is that there is something else going on as his figures really don't add up.

On the chasing for payments point, is he agreeing fees up front in writing and invoicing promptly. That helps enormously with actually getting payment: you don't want to be the last one to get your invoice in when all the money has been spent.

From the other side of the fence, we regularly use a mechanic who is great at his job and very reasonable on price but frustratingly vague with quotes and he takes months to invoice us. I like to be straight with people and I hate owing money. If he told us the amount straightaway we would pay immediately but when it takes him months after completing the work to even let us know the price he can damn well wait until it's convenient for us to pay, which might mean waiting a week or two. Are you sure that when he says he's chased payment he's actually (1) invoiced for the work and (2) actually contacted the customer to chase payment at least once?

I'm projecting, I know I am, but are you sure that something else isn't going on? Is he gambling? Protect yourself and your own earning potential. Easier said than done I know.

You do have to be very proactive with chasing: DH is, and will remove kit 'as a hint' from a venue if not paid, so even if takes a bit, he gets paid.

He has friends working at the same venue who are shy about asking and whose money can takes months upon months.

He needs to chase up any unpaid invoices first of all. That could help with the debt. Then work out if he's charging enough per day / per job.

It sounds like a tough situation. The only thing I can comment on is the back at work with a 3 month old thing. I know you might like longer but it's really not the end of the world, if you need to work you need to work. Baby will be fine. Relationships are (should be) a partnership so sitting down together and deciding that as you earn more steady money you should go back at 3 months and he should stay at home to avoid childcare costs is not a bad thing at all. It sounds like he is trying hard and struggling rather than being a lazy cocklodger so I would make decisions about who works etc based on the best financial choice for the family. I went back after 3 months on my first, 6 weeks on second and 4 weeks on third. It was the right choice for us and has worked fine.

OP I've been in the exact same situation twice so can sympathise. My DH getting a salaried job was the best thing that ever happened, both times.

The problem is he found it hard to admit that he's not cut out to be self-employed and saw it as a failure. He's a brilliant tradesman but terrible at record keeping and invoicing.

Another problem with that is that you don't really know how much you've earned until the end of the year. So he'd be spending away like he was earning 40k and then self-assessment would show he actually earned 16k. (And 6k one year!!!!)

Big site work isn't great because it's price work, it's not always well paid, there's a lot of competition for best paid jobs and when there's no work you're still expected to be on site earning no money. DH is a fast worker but just couldn't get enough work to make it worthwhile all the time.

He is NOT mentally unwell, which is the usual fallback excuse. Well you could say that about anyone including ladies with postnatal depression. My DH had fairly bad depression in the midst of being self-employed and it had a huge impact on us as a family.

I'd get him to look at colleges, housing associations, maintenance companies, failing that agencies with long term contracts. Good luck!

Would say to him, if you work together now to come up with a mutually agreeable solution, you'll be able to recover. Pay off the debts, get some stability, save up again.
If you're forced to feel that you're carrying the entire financial burden on your own, the resentment which comes with that is likely to be the end of your relationship.
I stayed when many would have left but it took me a long time to forgive. But we're in a much better place now, you can get this sorted.

He's not that good at what he does if he's in this mess despite having an in demand trade. He needs to do something else.

Is he networking after work?
Sounds off but my OH gets loads of work from conversations in the local put where a lot of trade people hang out.
Carpenters are sought after around here (not what my OH does) and can demand £200+ per day.
He needs to get his name out there.
Is he marketing himself at all?
In the local papers or news letters?
Does he have a website? Could you set one up for him?
Quite often in the trade industry it's not what you know it's who you know.
So he needs to get 'in' with people.

Im hoping OP is not going to be expected to come up with all the solutions ie sort out the debts, the invoices, the chasing up, continue working full-time with 2 young children to look after - she has a newborn, and is going back to work when baby is just 3 months old... is carrying the family moneywise in the main. its way too much for one person to sort, with all the other commitments.

This man needs to face up to whats happened, speak to Business Debtline, Step Change etc he can do that from the comfort of his chair at home. £14K of debt, unpaid bank cards and loans, keeping secrets, I wonder if he's up with HMRC & NI payments? Its unsustainable to live like this, bad enough if he was single but he is married with a young family. There has to be will to get up seek advice and let the professionals sort out what needs to be sorted, a problem shared is a problem halved n all that - albeit shared in the right place not necessarily a really worried partner taking it all on

OP your DH is lucky to have you, you're a Superwoman thats for sure

I call bullshit on some of his stories about non-paying customers. He's a carpenter only earning 16k and has racked up 14k of debt (that you know of)... he's got to be gambling.

I wouldn't believe any more stories about customers that had run out of money and couldn't pay until I'd been round to their house and heard it from them myself.

He needs get an employed job - any job - and meanwhile you need to extricate yourself financially from him (and his debts).

Ok haven't read the whole thread but it seems he has a number of issues here

1. His confidence/depression/anxiety have taken a big knock
2. He enjoys his actual work but not running a business

3 His customers - some are crap payers

Ok The possible anxiety depression get a GP appt and see what is avail to help him. Try not to berate and go on at him, have the convo that goes you are prepared to let him have x mths change at turning things round but after that he has to look for alternative incomes

He enjoys the work but not the business - get someone else to take initial calls, make appt, do the books and invoices and invoice chasing (or even do this yourself and set him some systems up to carry on when you are back at work.) To be honest this is generally how people in this situation work even if the ptnr works as well.

Take a look at his customers - who is and isn't paying. Create a black list. Actively look for more people like the good ones. See if there are other tradesmen who want subbies (although watch the I can't pay you till they pay me brigade).

Get him on some local free courses for small businesses to understand the sales and marketing process. Is there a gap in the market locally e.g. small jobs to fill the working gaps at the moment - make them cash up front on the day or the job doesn't get done

Think about where and how you are advertising - many smaller jobs are through FB contacts and local groups which can be free rather than pad paper adverts. Get his name out there.

My husband is also a skilled tradesman working self-employed in the building trade.

If your husband is working full Tim hours but not earning a full time wage then he is simply not charging enough. He needs to work out how much he wants to earn a year (the carpenters we know earn at least 24k at a low estimate), divide it by 52 then divide it by 5. Add a bit on for holidays and he has his day-rate. He needs to be charging people his day rate plus whatever it costs for materials, insurance, petrol and misc costs like clothing, tool replacement etc.

My husband doesn't have a natural business brain but has made a good go of it because he just uses that simple formula. As a guide, he charges £400 per day plus materials. It sounds a lot but he can't work every day due to lulls in work, hols, having to do quotes and admin etc. He takes home £1700 per month on that rate.