To tell DP he cannot continue to be self employed I've had enough!

[EnoughIsEnough123]

Back story - DP is a tradesman, earned a healthy living for 15 years until the guy who regularly supplied him with work retired. For the last 4 years he's had to go it alone and it's been a nightmare. Work has been patchy, income unstable and unreliable. He had a good year two years ago until the guy he was working for also retired. He seems to be very good at what he does and always gets good feedback and recommendations but (and this will probably surprise a lot of people) but despite doing a good job people often try to shirk paying at then end or find fault in the work to reduce what they pay.

We have an 18 month old and a newborn and I've just discovered he's got £14k worth of debt which I knew nothing about. The debt has accumulated from (another) rough couple of years with unreliable work and income. He hasn't been paying his bank loan and credit cards and has been hiding it from me. We rent, supposed to be saving for a home, so we don't have any assets.

I'm so upset and so angry that he's allowed things to get this bad. I've asked him repeatedly to get a job, any job, that pays him a set regular wage but he says he's good at what he does. That's not the issue the issue is he isn't earning any money!!! I work full time and am currently on maternity leave. I've agreed to go back to work full time after just 3 months maternity leave because we need the money. I'm so fed up of holding everything together, I feel like the only responsible one. I will be back at work full time with a 3 month old and a 19 month old!

We've had a chat this morning which resulted in the usual tears (his) and him telling me he's failing us and he feels sorry for me and he's useless etc.... I've told him we don't have time for him to feel sorry for himself we need solutions and if he feels mentally unwell he needs to get help. I grew up with a dad with ongoing depression and anxiety, we never had any money, as kids we knew they struggled to pay bills etc and I won't have that upbringing for my children.

Has anyone been in a similar situation?

My dh is a decorator and we face similar with difficult customers. We are in the process of taking one to the county court for not paying, he withheld £500 of the agreed price quoting spurious reasons. He turned up at our home at 8 pm at night shouting the odds and saying he wasn't paying up. I guess my dh kind of works to fit around our son so he reduces his income as he takes a lot of holidays for childcare. I also work p/t but it works for us. He is always getting text emails from agencies needing staff 15 to 20 per hour but prefers the flexibility of working for himself

If he is a chippy he should be fighting them off with a shitty stick.

He is either not doing enough work, isn't good enough or he isn't as good as he thinks he is. If you are in the London area especially.

Or he is earning but not telling you what he is doing with his money.

Does he gamble OP? The pity party and tears sound very familiar to me. My dp would in the past have spent hundreds of pounds in the bookies.

I gave him an ultimatum years ago. Took his bank card and changed pins and everything. I couldn't live like that and gave him the choice of us or the bookies. He chose us but it has been difficult sometimes.

What do you think the issue is because I don't think that it's not finding work.

Are you me? self employed partner, also carpenter, nearly cost me my sanity.

Im off to work now but please pm me if you like.

When its good its good but when its bad i can't stand it.

Been there with debt and cashing in our penny jar.

It does get better though and there are advantages. I usedto do DPs tax return and i refuse to do it now as i try to switch off.

i do wish he had a regular wage though. Does your DP use agencies? my dp does domestic work and falls back on agencies when its slack.

mummy That's exactly what I've said to him! He feel he isn't tough enough to be self employed. He's a really good carpenter, I've seen his work and heard his feedback but he's everyones friend and that doesn't mix with being self employed and chasing people for money. He seems to flourish in 'one off' jobs where the work is more bespoke and the customer wants perfection because they're spending loads of money so he has more time, he's a perfectionist. Site work (new builds) are fast paced and the emphasis is on churning out the work rather than it being perfect.

Yello Sounds like the same man! :) And yep that's what I've said to him. Just get the job done if they don't want perfection then it doesn't have to be perfect! He's forever buying new materials because he won't make do.

Parsley I would willing takeover the invoicing for him. I have to nurture relationships in my line of work so I distance myself from the invoicing/payment side of things (fortunately I work for a company) so it doesn't get in the way of the relationships.

Runs my DP will price up any job and is often doing so of an evening or weekend rather than turning work away. He recently completed a job where they've refused to pay him the full amount so he went back and asked them why and to show him what they were unhappy with and he would put it right...when he got there the couple couldn't show him any faults and eventually told him they'd run out of money and overspent on their house and that's why they couldn't pay him!!

YY to customers being the hardest part of being self-employed.

Being self-employed is not really being your own boss. It is having all of your customers as your bosses. I have heard this from multiple self-employed people. If you DP is not tough at negotiating, it might be that being self-employed is just not the thing for him. FWIW, my DH is in a partnership and his business partner did negotiating with the customers, especially at the beginning. My DH has toughed up now but non-payment of invoices is still a nightmare for the business.

There is a MASSIVE skills shortage in the trades right now. Whatever the reason for him refusing to find another job, it's nothing to do with there not being any!

I was also married to a bit of a man child with no ambition. I assume you don't want to leave yours like I did mine, so I would force his hand: write him a CV and start applying.

so he went back and asked them why and to show him what they were unhappy with and he would put it right...when he got there the couple couldn't show him any faults and eventually told him they'd run out of money and overspent on their house and that's why they couldn't pay him!!

The cunts!

Your husband sounds far too nice, OP. People like him got stomped on and abused in business. He either needs to toughen up (fast) or find new work.

Being SE isn't what ppl imagine it is. Having to constantly chase for payment is miserable, demeaning and demoralising.

I hope for all your sakes, he sees sense.

OP does he have a cscs card and the usual for site work? He can still be self employed but he needs to be a bit more upfront. Ringing round all the companies far and wide and getting his name in their books. My parents own a construction company and regularly put out adverts for self employed chippies to work on sites in London. But he does need two levels of working - one bespoke - one new build. The first is great for the multi million pound houses that are being built. The second he needs to finish the job and quickly. A lot of work is job priced now and larger contractors prefer that over day rates - so could he use that to his advantage and price everything on a job basis?

Pm me where he can get to and I'll see if my parents have any bespoke work need doing

Something must be going very wrong somewhere, one of my brothers runs a carpentry/handyman business started by himself and business is booming, he's had to take on extra staff and earns a very good salary. Plus gets time off nowadays.
Can he look locally for smaller businesses like his for employment still small and skilled but less responsibility on him to chase invoices etc ?
I personally would set a time limit, 6 months turn it around or get a job and mean it. Much the same as you I grew up with a get up get on with it mentality and this would drive me mad.
Certainly in the south east people are crying out for tradesmen.
Does he have a online presence/shop? A lot of my brothers work gets commissioned through that.

From his behaviour as described by you OP, I would say that your DH is very likely suffering from depression. He feels useless and hates himself for not being 'a better person'. He needs help. Can you persuade him to see his GP?

I've NC as my post will be quite outing re my work and don't want it associated with other posts.

I work for a small building company in payroll/HR. We're based in NW England. We're not in a city but in a fairly large town and work across the NW and north Midlands.
We have a mix of contractors under the CIS scheme but many are PAYE due to the steady nature of our business.

A few points:

OP you said he's self employed, is that under CIS?
If so , is he making his NI contributions? Please check that, I'm concerned that he may not be with such debt.

Also, many of our CIS team find that they're due a tax refund at the end of the year. Has he been claiming these?

I don't understand how he can only be earning £16k, our unskilled staff (labourers and drivers) are taking home more than that and as I said the work is steady. We don't do overtime so that's based on a 40 hr week Mon-Fri. Is the £16k based on a net/profit figure?

Over the last 8 or 9 months we've found that business has slowed down and this does appear to be refelected nationally.
However, even when the business is quiter as it is now, it's quite hard to find reliable, properly skilled tradespeople mostly because there were many years recently when the UK just wasn't training many people.

To sum up, depending where you are living I don't understand why he's struggling to find regular work. He doesn't sound cut out for new build, which I do understand.

I would reevaluate my relationship with someone who could conceal debt TBH, what else could he lie about? With that level of debt I would have to wonder whether it is just money mismanagement or there's some secret spending going on like a gambling habit. Either way it's putting unfair pressure on you.

Just seeing this:
Runs my DP will price up any job and is often doing so of an evening or weekend rather than turning work away. He recently completed a job where they've refused to pay him the full amount so he went back and asked them why and to show him what they were unhappy with and he would put it right...when he got there the couple couldn't show him any faults and eventually told him they'd run out of money and overspent on their house and that's why they couldn't pay him!!

That's awful. That really isn't his fault, so for that I would cut him a bit of slack. He should then tell them that he will sue them if they fail to pay within 30 days. He will begin proceedings against them in the Small Claims Court (if the value isn't more than he can claim for using that system).

I hate to say it but I think you need to be the moneybags (and accountant and banker and everything else) here. You should investigate if he set himself up as a sole-trader or a limited company and then was hired on that basis. There would be a money trail and perhaps a mechanism to recover debt through the system that way. I'm not 100% up to speed on these things but I'm sure there would be someone along soon who can properly advise you on how to recover all of that outstanding money.

I haven't been through it myself but two friends of mine have.

The first friend her DH was working for a company he was on quite a good wage at the time and she said the place he worked at loved him and he had lots of friends there but he quit that job and set up his own buisness,he went into removals(nothing to do with his previous job)they had 3 young DC and the youngest was a very young baby.

Some of the men he worked with left with him,it lasted about 4 months in the end and they were skint,him and the other guys were very lucky that they're previous work place asked them to come back and her DH got a payrise to go back as well.
She was so relieved she cried when she told me,but she'd never told her husband how worried she was,they were very lucky as a family that he got offered his old job back.

That was years ago and he never did anything like it again.

The second one was my best friend and that was only a few months ago.
They're getting married this month as well,god knows what he was thinking,he left a well paid job where he was well thought of and just decided he was going to set up his own company.
My best friend supported him and seemed really happy about it all(on the outside)me and my DH knew how worried she really was and I will admit I was pissed off with him for stressing my poor best friend out and so near they're wedding.

He got asked back to his old job and got offered a payrise,he went back to them and then got head hunted by another company for better money so he went with them.

No idea why either of them thought leaving job security behind was a good idea but I do know that both of the guys had both had some major life changes happen just before they made the decision.
I don't know if it's the same for your DP?

With his trade like others have said about agencys alsoI don't know what it's like where you live but the local councils where we are are also crying out for skilled tradesmen.
I know a few that work for one of our local councils and they are very well paid.

Ok I see that was a major x post as I've been trying to write it for about 30 minutes, just seen further info from OP.

Private work can be a nightmare. We see it all the time on MN

am rushing as need to go to work - ha - but veyr much agree with the post by alphabetty, he needs to broaden his horizons and that may mean he's working below his skill level. Hopefully that would only be for a short-ish time .

Well he still needs to be paid, even if they have 'run out of money' - which I bet they haven't really. He can send in another invoice for the balance of what's owed, with his terms for late payment added to it, or go to the small claims court.

He recently completed a job where they've refused to pay him the full amount so he went back and asked them why and to show him what they were unhappy with and he would put it right...when he got there the couple couldn't show him any faults and eventually told him they'd run out of money and overspent on their house and that's why they couldn't pay him!!

Whilst that is terrible (he just needs to go straight away to small claims) poor paying customers really can;t be the only reason he racked up 16k of debt without telling you....

WhatchaMaCalllit
Yes the client should have paid and he should look into small claims but why and how should OP be the accountant and everything else when she's just had a baby and will shortly have to return to her own full time job? She can't do his job too! If he can't cope with the complications of being self employed, that's all the more reason to get a regular job.

Sounds like a couple I'm closely related to-dw struggled on for years, helped dh pay off debts accrued while self employed, always a reason why the books didn't balance. His business actually cost them money to run, they borrowed from the equity in their house a couple of times. Dh work mates managed to bring home a profit and eventually, after years of this saga, he got a job with a building firm. He is a MUCH better employee than employer and they are finally getting financially straight.

Some people don't have the skills to be self employed. This guy was also bad with reckless spending and needs the motivation of a boss to make him work hard.

I would give him an ultimatum because if not, his debt will drag you down. He must get a job.

When he does the pity party, be implacable. "I'm useless, you deserve better" etc,manswer "Yes youbare, and I do. So do something about it."

My DH left a well paid job 4 years ago to start his own company. I didn't want him to do it, I was pretty sure it would fail but it was something he was very passionate about so he went for it.
It was 3 years of absolute hell, we struggled financially and I had to become the main breadwinner while still doing all the house/child stuff. He " wasted" over £40000 of our savings, his Mum gave him £10000 to invest ( despite me asking her not to) and I became quite physically and mentally unwell. For a bit of background my father had a string of failed businesses that made my childhood VERY difficult so the situation was even harder for me that usual.
I also was involved in his business in a practical way which added to my stress.
Thankfully the money to run the business ran out ( he also had outside investment that I helped secure) and as of last October DH joined MY company as a consultant and now earns a very good wage. Even so it will take us many years to recover financially and I am hopeful that eventually I will be able to put it behind me and feel the same way about DH that I used to - there is a lot of resentment to be honest.
DH is very skilful in his field and well thought of, he CANT run a business though. Not everyone can
Your Dh needs to stop the woe is me crap and get a proper job.

Council is a good idea. We live in a council-owned block and there is a bloke who maintains our block and a few other blocks nearby as well. This person is helpful and cheerful, and really useful to know because he knows the fabric of the building that we live in so well. I would imagine that becoming a contractor to, or employed by, a council, and doing repairs for council tenants or in municipal buildings, could be reliable work and rewarding as well. Also, good pension, if you are employed by the council.

He doesn't need retraining though does he? He has a trade and is good at it. He's not good at the business money side - he should go and get paid employment doing his trade. That part is simple.

As for the £14k secret debt, not talking with you about it and you being forced back to work after 3 months maternity leave feeling unsupported, I'm really not sure I could ever get over that.

You aren't married - so if you do split at least its his debt alone.