Obese people to be refused surgery

[ReallyReallyNearly]

Isn't this just another form of discrimination, www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-37265752
Argument seems to be on financial reason rather than health, do we stop nhs services for people who smoke, or those who drink too much etc. Where does one draw a line?!

For all those spouting 'lack of funding'. The NHS got 116 BILLION POUNDS FOR 2015/2016. Is that really a tiny amount to some people????

www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/thenhs/about/Pages/overview.aspx

IfTheCapFitsWearIt says it all for me, really. Fat blaming, smoker bashing, drinker shaming.

I wonder how many of you oh-so-fucking-perfect people are going to feel when all that lovely fag, booze and lard tax isn't being pumped into the coffers? (yes, the country does turn a profit on this crap)
Perhaps we could stick the boot into the genetically disadvantaged next(after all you shouldn't have had those kids should you)? Or maybe people who drive like tits? Or do fell running? Or cycle?
See the way this is going? I hope so... because we are ALL under attack.

The NHS got 116 BILLION POUNDS FOR 2015/2016. Is that really a tiny amount to some people????

and yet it is not enough.

People don't think it is a "Tiny amount" they understand that it isn't enough to fund everything.

Hyacinth

No I can't provide evidence, I've read several sources about this today and it was mentioned in one of them. I think it may have been The Times.

Not RTFT yet but the thing that strikes me about the comparison to smoking etc is that smoking is more clear cut, nobody needs to smoke at all, so it is entirely self inflicted (unless I suppose passive smoking) but there are a lot more factors in play with obesity.

This is the Vale ofYork CCG commissioning statement for hip and knee joint replacement surgery

It sounds more reasonable than is being made out.

Hollinghurst. Are you sure you have a bmi of over 30 in those pictures?

Maybe the pictures are deceiving but you really don't look that heavy. If you are, say 5'6 then you would have to be something like nearly 13 stone to have a BMI of over 30.

I'm 5'6 and I have a similar shape to you i.e. muscular, sturdy thighs , broad shoulders etc and I'd be really massive if I was 13 stone.

This BMI graph is for women.

Fat blaming, smoker bashing, drinker shaming.

Oh dear, we really are living in a polarized world now. Like the whole Brexit in/out non-stop blaming crap So sad.

Funny. I don't drive, hardly ever in a car (only public transport) but would NEVER blame someone for ending up in the hospital for it.

I smoke fags and a mild weed too to relax cos it's preferable to all the chemical pharma crap out there , drink, haven't been in hospital since giving birth 25 years ago, pay my taxes to support the NHS...
I'm anything but obese.

As for "passive smoking"... how about passive inhalation of car fumes which you cannot get away from... but oh no, don't touch that holy cow! Cos it's the economy, stupid...

Anyway, don't expect this Government to uphold the NHS. they're going for an American-style health service. By hook or by crook. And some people voted for it by voting to come out of the EU... (which has universal health care).

I haven't had a chance to read up on the reasoning behind this (beyond the headlines) but I think BMI 30 may be too harsh. A quick calculation tells me I'd need to be a stone more than now to get to BMI 30 which I can imagine is easily done. OTOH if all I needed to take off is 7kg and essential I would hopefully not take too long. A bit on the fence on this one.

you have to be extremely muscular, think competitive male body builder steroid enhanced physique to have a bmi of 30 due to excess muscle mass rather than excess fat, no women would be able to achieve that level of muscularity
I'm muscular due to years of strength training but lean and with a bmi of 20,

There's much more accurate ways of measuring whether someone carries muscle or fat, or indeed carries their weight dangerously

yes, waist circumference tends to provide more useful info than BMI

Not everyone is fat because of poor diet choices
Some life saving/ essential medications increase weight - should those people be refused surgery?

Tik - 15st 6

Im 5 foot 5 and 11 and a half stone. (down from 21 stone) With another stones worth of loose skin.

Does the weight of loose skin get included in the BMI calculations. Because on the other thread there is a woman who has lost 20 stone and her loose skin weighs 4 stone . The NHS wont remove her loose skin so of course they definately wont include that loose skin when they weigh her or calculate her BMI because im sure they wouldnt be that hypocritical

I also have lipodema (inherited from my gran) I have mentioned it before on this site. Had it since i was a kid. Used to get called tree trunk legs at school.

Had a great GP who examined me and told me that my loose skin weighs about a stone. Unfortunately shes retired now.

If you read the Vale of York statement it does allow clinicians of people that don't meet the 'criteria' to make individual applications for funding.

For patients who do not fulfil the above criteria, funding will only be considered where there are exceptional clinical circumstances.

(I imagine this would be suitable for all these muscle bound people with BMIs over 30 )

As can be seen from this thread, there are lots of cases where people are overweight through no fault of there own but surely these are the exceptions and that for the majority of people with a bmi of over 30 there isn't a medical reason and it is simply a matter of eating too much and exercising too little.

" IfTheCapFitsWearIt says it all for me, really. Fat blaming, smoker bashing, drinker shaming"

Yep

Part of me can't fully believe this plan will really go forward - but the other part thinks yes it will, and when it does, even though the economy i vastly boosted via cigarette and alcohol tax, and government won't find a way to bring down the extortionate price of healthy foods that we must surely accept some cannot afford - it will very quickly become the norm.

The smugs and food police can have a field day then with their cucumber carrot stick and quinoa theories. Im more worried about bus and car fumes and poor air quality in general killing people way before their time, especially in cities, than anything else. But thats not food related so there's no major obsession about such a clear and present danger that impacts upon us all

Flipping heck Hollinghurst. That's amazing. I'm shocked.
You must be a lot taller than me

I'm just over 5ft 10. They didn't even ask about my weight before surgery

It's fairly easy for some people to have a normal bodyfat percentage and an obese (30.2) BMI. I'm a weight lifter and gardener, and have a bodyfat of ~28%. It's just my body type chucks on muscle easily, I eat well and train to promote this, and my job encourages it.

Not RTFT yet but the thing that strikes me about the comparison to smoking etc is that smoking is more clear cut, nobody needs to smoke at all, so it is entirely self inflicted (unless I suppose passive smoking) but there are a lot more factors in play with obesity.

If you're going to look at it that simply, then no-one needs to overeat either and overeating is a massive cause of obesity.

But it's not that simple is it?

People overeat for all manner of reasons, just as people remain nicotine addicts for all manner of reasons.

Incidentally only my horribly fit friends have so far been a burden on the NHS. Knee surgeries, Achilles, from marathons - a few hip and shoulder replacements ( ex semi pro rugby ) and weirdly two heart surgeries ? broken and dislocated bones from horse and mountain bike riding

My roundy friends have yet to hobble onto the wagon. If they do they will be shamed.
What a shit shower of madness.
No one knows the good health we will get or when it departs. My mother is now 80% WC bound in the grips of a degenerative illness and has put on about 1/2 a stone a year due to lack of mobility, pain, meds, misery. She is a good, worthy tax payer and deserves our support -not judgement.
We must offer all to all or none to none

I'm a size 12 and 81kg which is a BMI of 30. I'm muscular as I lift weights and climb. Thighs and calves are huge & I have ab definition. Not everybody has wobbly bits at BMI 30. Some women I know even look slender at the same BMI so depends on body type & how much you exercise.

Im on the fence but can see why this decision has been made. There are medical reasoning behind this. If overweight there can be complications during surgery. Tbh i used to do ward rounds and cant tell you how awful it is to have seen a patient whos had a leg amputated due to smoking, diabetics, other issues etc and then walk past them later in the day puffing away on cigarette and knowing full well that there not going to heal up and must likely need to other leg amputating if they keep smoking. 😢

Having spent 4 months of this year in hospital dp cannot believe the amounts of money that is wasted by the ridiculous practises that dp saw everyday just from his hospital bed and don't get him started on the attempt to save money when discharging him that ended up with him wasting more of NHS funds because he ended up back at the same hospital spending days in A&E and subsequently back in hospital because they didn't give him the dressings he needed to dress his post surgery wound on leaving hospital.

Maybe addressing their own practises before blaming others might be the way to go forward

they didn't give him the dressings he needed to dress his post surgery wound on leaving hospital.

Could you not have just gone to Boots? Presumably he knew he'd have to change the dressings.