Obese people to be refused surgery

[ReallyReallyNearly]

Isn't this just another form of discrimination, www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-37265752
Argument seems to be on financial reason rather than health, do we stop nhs services for people who smoke, or those who drink too much etc. Where does one draw a line?!

Helenefischer

The main difference between additions and an eating addiction is that you have to eat.

I also can't think of a single occasion where someone has brought in a tray of cigarettes and pretty much everyone has gone 'its only one cake'.

fake Personally I think that is reasonable, you cannot have treatment that is NHS and private combined so any hazards of private treatment should be dealt with privately. I think that should also apply to people who have any cosmetic surgery, sadly there is a fair number who travel abroad and have cheap treatment yet expect the NHS to deal with any subsequent problems.

The problem is that the demands on the NHS (both reasonable and unreasonable) are increasing hugely yet funding is not. We cannot continue and have to either take out less or pay more

Yes!
Great idea, don't look at why as a society people are putting on weight, less and less restriction on food "manufacturers", selling off playing fields, public spaces and less access to sports in schools etc.
Hey and of course bullying and judgement will solve this issue . FFS.
While your at it stop treating anorexics too, until they just put on weight, no treatment if take part in rock climbing or other "dangerous" sports, stressed from overworking -self inflicted too, hey what about depression, anxiety - no treatment till you cheer up and stop worrying. Sexually transmitted disease, same. Injured in car accident, cycle accident, playing rugby its your own fault. Oh and childbirth, well you know that sex can lead to babies -self inflicted- at your own risk.
The NHS is being systematically destroyed by this govt, this is a side show, just like the crap about "hard working families" blame individuals, drum up hate towards and easy target instead of looking at what's really going on.

So if an obese person suffers from an emergency or life-threatening condition,e.g. a broken leg,a head injury,or appendicitis,then they will be refused surgery and left to die? And there was me thinking I lived in a civilised country. If this had been implemented 4 years ago,I probably would have been a goner. I had an 'incarcerated umbilical hernia',basically a trapped piece of bowel,which was agonising and made me violently ill. I was later told that if it had been left another 48 hours,I would probably have died.

So if an obese person suffers from an emergency or life-threatening condition,e.g. a broken leg,a head injury,or appendicitis,then they will be refused surgery and left to die

No.

A proposed restriction by the NHS Vale of York Clinical Commissioning Group would have seen non-life threatening procedures delayed by a year for those with a body mass index exceeding 30.

It's a bad way of trying to encourage personal responsibility which is sorely lacking- yes there are exceptions - but you can't medicalise all overweight people! You can try as much as you like but if someone isn't ready to stop smoking/ lose weight- they won't- you cannot medicalise personal choices!

This method is wrong as its a covert way of saying- the NHS is broke- we have to save "X" - so hip and knee ops and tonsillectomy and cataract surgery is being rationed........as in WANDSWORTH......not with these criteria- they're just elevating referral criteria for how bad you have to be before you get the ops- for everyone!!!!!
that's not right ether- but it's covert so they escape interrogation and blame!
We have to have a wider discussion about the NHS and what can and what can't be funded - but the government are too scared! Do you have a lottery- I'm amazed at what gets funded in some areas and what's refused and on what grounds?! It's ridiculous......
Plus the bigger issues- why are ALL prescriptions free for diabetics and people with under active thyroid - a millionaire wouldn't pay for an antibiotic unrelated to his thyroid status!? But a working not well off person has to pay for theirs and all their asthma treatment- in England anyway........don't get me started- all too depressing! It's a downhill slide and without clarity this will get worse!!!!!

It has been made very clear Janey that emergency treatment will be available for all, these restrictions would just be for elective procedures

I'm really conflicted here as any blanket approach is likely to be inappropriate for some people but I do think everyone needs to take more responsibility in their expectations and use of the NHS

Yes we all have to eat I was obese for most of my adulthood until I was borderline diabetes and heart problems. I then changed my eating habits as very hard as it was....to gain a reasonable control of eating I would have appreciated a place to go and really knuckle down to it. We have to eat but we also have a choice of the things and portions we eat. I counted calories and it wasnt until then you realise what you are doing i never use to think twice about a kfc meal until I was dieting at over 1200 calories a meal that is almost a daily intake for me at 1500 calories due to height and build. A serving of rice is barrly nothing at 119 calories where I use to just make it and eat it. Calorie counting is scary and hard but if obese people had more support on mental belief to succeed without drastic surgeries it would help so many.

No, I don't think obese people should be refused surgery. I'm uncomfortable with the "brought it on themselves" argument. How many people really live a perfectly safe life? Eating nothing but organic food, exercising 5 times a week, never using chemical products, no risky hobbies or habits, 8 hours sleep a night, not under too much stress, non-smoking, non-drinking, no troubled background making psychological issues more likely, staying only where there is no traffic pollution, supportive friends, no financial difficulties etc?

No-one is perfect and I just don't think it's up to us to judge who is "deserving" of an operation. Some people don't exercise nearly enough but aren't overweight. Some women find it hard to lose the weight they put on in pregnancy. Others could be people with underlying medical factors making obesity more likely. Some could be those for whom a chocolate bar is the only treat they can afford.

Someone might not have gorged on cream buns to become obese. They might just have eaten an extra biscuit twice a week for 3 years and it has happened gradually. If someone is obese it doesn't automatically mean they are lazy. Perhaps losing weight just hasn't reached the top of their priority list because they are having other pressing problems in their life.

Should the NHS stop treating STIs or because sufferers "brought it on themselves"? Should abortion be unavailable, and sports injuries, or accidents where the person is judged to have not been careful enough to stay on the ladder instead of falling off?

But overweight people who work pay into the system

In general, yes - but unlike smokers (who've got grief for years over how much they cost the NHS) there's little specific tax on the items that cause the problems which would make a contribution to their health care

I realize tax isn't kept in one special pot and I'm certainly not suggesting VAT should be levied on all foods, but it's not quite the same is it?

And I'm an ex smoker by the way ...

Lets ban medicine for the obese, anyone who smokes, people who never exercise, anyone who drinks more than one unit of alcohol per day (one very small glass of wine and all 7 cannot be drunk at the weekend, that is binge drinking and very bad for you), anyone who does a high risk sport (you chose to ride a horse/climb a mountain/cycle a bike in a city/ play rugby/parachute etc), anyone who gets a sun tan, anyone who takes trips abroad where there might be difficult infections, anyone who has ever missed a dental check up, anyone who has had unprotected sex outside a strictly monogamous relationship (assuming the history of your partner is full and verified), anyone who jay walks, anyone who rides a motor bike, anyone who risks unpasteurized cheese...........lets exclude anyone who can be remotely accused of causing their own problem, NHS would be much more affordable.

Excluding the obese is discriminatory, Believe me I work in the NHS and obesity is a problem, the patients are heavy difficult to move, get complications, need specialist equipment but they are also over-represented in the poor groups in society where dietary choices are more limited by cost, so why not just exclude the poor and privatise everything, we could do away with the NHS altogether.

Obscene action by the commissioning group. If they want to do good, offer proper support to any obese person needing elective surgery, help to loose some weight to minimise their risks but do not just ban them.

Im an ex smoker too. I gave up 11 years ago.

Body mass index is not a fair tool to measure obesity. What about the athlete who trains and develops muscle e.g. rugby player. The bmi would be very high as weight to height would be high. Then take the tall skinny fellow who does no exercise at all, gets out of breath just thinking about running, as weight to height would be low the bmi would show should be considered "fit" for surgery. BMI is useless as a measure of health.

I live in France, and this thread would be meaningless there. If it is deemed that you need to lose weight then you are told so, and if necessary offered help eg a dietician, to do it - simply because there are dangers to health associated with being overweight. You will not be operated on eg for knee replacement until you lose the amount of weight deemed necessary. And smokers (smoking is much more common in France) are encouraged to give it up, and also will not have surgery for a smoking-related problem unless/until they give it up. People in hospital are weighed every other day (and people are weighed just about every time they visit their GP too, whatever the visit is for), and given weight-loss diets if they are gaining weight, or not losing it if they need to. I am probably about 5 kilos overweight, and every medical consultation I have had has ended with the words "first lose five kilos, and then we'll do something"

Yes muddling I was told I need to lose at least 2 stone for surgery. Rather than being offered support I was actually told I couldn't have any help when I asked. I lost the weight but it was really tough.

That was your last paragraph especially

You can say that about a lot of things though. Some inherited diseases are due to people making babies when they are related. This takes up a lot of money from nhs and could be avoided if you didn't create a life that way. So the children with serious conditions shouldn't be treated because it could of been avoided if its parents weren't related? The nhs problem is people come here just for the nhs service as its free or th contribution is cheaper than from where they live.

In France ... people are weighed just about every time they visit their GP too, whatever the visit is for

I wonder if that would be worth adopting in the UK?

I'm really conflicted here as any blanket approach is likely to be inappropriate for some people but I do think everyone needs to take more responsibility in their expectations and use of the NHS

The 'everyone' is the key point here, I think. The problem is that certain groups are being expected to take more responsibility than others. For non-clinical reasons. Which is why, contrary to some posts disputing it, things like contact sports and drug taking are absolutely relevant.

Excluding the obese is discriminatory, Believe me I work in the NHS and obesity is a problem, the patients are heavy difficult to move, get complications, need specialist equipment but they are also over-represented in the poor groups in society where dietary choices are more limited by cost, so why not just exclude the poor and privatise everything, we could do away with the NHS altogether.

The obese are also over-represented amongst certain ethnic groups. I've highlighted that already, but nobody seems particularly interested in engaging with the implications.

Are obese people going to be able to opt out of paying into the NHS then if they can't take out? Seems pretty unfair to take 1/3rd of Mr Large's wages in tax and NI and then deny him a knee op, whether the weight has exacerbated the problem or not.

What's with the histrionics on this thread? They're not proposing the refusal of treatment in the same way that if you turn up utterly shitfaced in A&E, they won't refuse to treat you.

Most non-elective surgeries are orthopaedic. Being obese and having knee or hip surgery is risky. It doesn't matter if your BMI is 30 and you don't look it (like hollinhurst84) because you're still pushing the same amount of weight through your joints. The "BMI is rubbish" tool is mostly used by people who don't like what it says. For the vast majority of people, it's an accurate yet crude tool of measurement. Women don't build muscle in the same way as men anyway. Additionally, many male athletes will be within th normal BMI range. It's only the body builders and rugby player types. I wonder what the answer would be if you asked an orthopaedic surgeon what percentages of rugby players with a BMI of 30+ come to their clinics needing joint replacement?

I also wonder how many of you OUTRAGED people have had complex orthopaedic surgery and tried to rehabilitate whilst being obese? It's hard work to recover and even harder if you've packed on the extra pounds. Imagine walking on a replaced knee. Agony? Imagine pushing a few extra stone through that. Imagine knowing that if you don't lose weight, you'll be going down this road all over again because by being fat, you've worn through the knee quicker than you should have. I'm overweight and was obese. I'm getting to the point where I'll need my knees and hips replaced soon, although not due to my fat. It's not helping me though! I strongly suspect most of you don't really know what it's like, yet you're bleating on and banging your drums.

Weighing someone every other DAY is excessive and will show up fluctuations in weight.

I successfully lost weight at slimming world I used to weigh in once a fortnight.

Doggity i used to be 21 stone. I know what its like to ache.

Why shouldn't over weight people get help, there are NHS clinics for alcohol and drugs, eating is another addiction, HOWEVER, chicken shops on every other corner don't help and this is a local council issue, high streets are full of places to eat and have snacks at any time of the day, this wasn't the case when I was a child, we had one cafe in the village and a chip van at the weekend, I used to smoke and it was very hard to stop but I did with medical help and I was and continue to be grateful for that help, there are a thousand things the NHS could do but the government want to privitise so let's run it into the ground then there will be good reason to sell it off to the highest bidder, Mr Branson is waiting in the wings