To think there has got to be an easier way to get older children to sleep?

[ThisIsNotARealAvo]

We have 2 children aged 7 and nearly 9. We adopted them 18 months ago. Bedtime takes absolutely ages. Both children need an adult with them until they fall asleep, which sometimes means I am doing bedtime from 7 until 9 or later. I work as a teacher and get really tired, making me snappy around these endless bedtimes, and also would like to spend my evenings on other tasks sometimes. It makes it very difficult for one of us to go out (although we are lucky to have PIL to babysit sometimes so we can both go out).

It's driving me crazy, I just dread bedtime as I know I'm going to be sitting there for so long. My younger child usually gets to sleep quite quickly but my older child not for 45 mins to an hour.

DH and I have tried various ways of taking turns, doing one night each or one child each, and the routine is precitable - bath, teeth, one story, a couple of songs of Spotify and lights out. This is a routine we have honed over the last 18 months. We have also tried lights- night lights, lights on, off, music, no music, but my son still takes ages to go to sleep. I've tried back rubs, meditation type stuff, and every lavender product out there.

I fee for him as I know he's anxious, and to be fair their behaviour at bedtime is usually very good. I just want my evenings back.

IABU aren't I? I will just have to put up with it until they grow out of it! I just long to kiss them good night and go downstairs.

I don't necessarily agree bed time is too early but it depends what time you have to be up. My DS (8) goes at 7 but we are up at 6 and I have to wake him most mornings. He sometimes reads in bed until 7.45 now he's a little older.

I have always been clear about what is expected at bed time. We do shower, drink and malted milk biscuit, teeth, toilet, short story. Both DCs know I don't expect to see them again before morning. Any messing about (rare) is greeted with a friendly "it's bedtime, love you, good night". Any further messing about and they just get tucked in silently. My evenings are important to me (and DP) as we need a little quiet grown up time each day. It's the one thing really that I'm strict about.

When my DSD was having issues getting to sleep as she'd always had an adult with her til she fell asleep- it could be way past 10, we talked to her about a new routine and did bath, teeth, story routine then put a lullaby/ classical music on, nightlight and gave her a kiss and cuddle and promised to come back up and check every 10 minutes. I set an alarm and every 10 mins one of us would pop our head round the door, if she was awake we'd say good girl for being relaxed and trying to sleep and we'd be back to check in another 10 mins, blow her a kiss and go back (no conversation). She did have a couple of nights of tears at first but we stuck to what we said we'd do and explained we'd be back up in ten minutes to check in her. She also really liked the soft music on. The first few nights (maybe a week?) we might have been up 4 times before she was asleep (she'd lie there to check we were coming up, but slowly her eyes would be shutting and she'd be snoozing) but it quickly became 1 or 2 times, then within a few weeks she was asleep within the 10 mins. 2 years later she always settles really well, we don't have music it a nightlight in now and will go straight to sleep after a story/ read and goodnight kiss. I think she was worried about noises and scared of the dark and had issues with being left (poss. Parental split?) it really helped that she knew we'd always come back to check and we always did. We then praised her in the morning and have her a treat to do with sleeping well on weekends.
I hope you can find a way to settle your DCs. You sound like a lovely mum!

To fit in work could you sit and work while they do their homework. Mine are very little still but they sometimes draw while I write, 'read' while I read my own book etc.

I would say it's also too early. Instead of spending 7-9pm waiting around and settling, it would maybe be better to spend 7-8pm playing a board game together, puzzle, drawing quietly, then 8-8.30pm in bed and read to them. Then settle around 8.30-9pm. Still asleep the same time, but you haven't wasted 2 hours

As they are older adopted children I think you need to rethink your expectations. Of course, none of us will know their backgrounds (how long they were with birth families, how many foster families they had, what extent were they neglected etc). The typical adopted child at the age you adopted yours will have been through an awful lot. It is no wonder they will take ages to fall asleep. I think you must be doing a great job if their behaviour is generally good at bedtime so please pat yourself on the back for that! If they suffer anxiety perhaps approach social services for advice on what can be done.
Honestly, all the training we did before getting dd says that your children are being normal in an adoption situation. Hang in there

Wow, so many replies! I agree that 7 is too early for the older one and should have said that the younger one starts bath at 7 and usually is asleep by 745-8, the older one has a bath about 730 and then goes to sleep by 9. I will try letting them stay up later but with the younger one in particular she gets really tired and is impossible to put to bed after about 8 and has massive meltdowns. They both wake up about 630-7 in the morning regardless of what time they go to bed (even on holiday etc).

I think it is time to try the gradual retreat as pp have said, I'll just make sure they know exactly what's going to happen because they definitely don't like surprises especially at bed time. Even not being able to find the story they want has had a powerful effect. As I said they are really good at bedtime so I feel bad for complaining!

Thanks everyone for your sympathy and advice, I really appreciate it!

at the poster who left her adopted child screaming at night time.

I am an adoptee, I was older. I've felt insecure my whole life and I remember being afraid at night.

Of course they are unsettled. It's only been 18 months. I presume their life previously was unsettled/traumatic. It shows a stunning lack of empathy, to expect them just to adjust to your expectations so soon after placement.

Do they have psychological support? Do you get support? I can understand it's draining but you must have understood their additional needs?

I would try a gradual approach, popping out of the room/downstairs to get a drink, extended to peeling potatoes, put something away or having a shower etc but always going back after x amount of time, assuming both should be able to read a digital clock and always being back before or on time to build confidence that you will return when promised. This worked with my dd (8) and can now study/work while she reads for 30-45 mins before calling me to tuck in to bed between 8/8.30.

Yes I understand their history and their needs, this is why I am asking for advice about how to settle them quickly at night time. I have not tried the super nanny 'keep on putting them back in bed' for this reason. I was hoping for, and have got, some excellent advice, such as story CDs which I hadn't tried, and that bedtime is too early which I fully take on board.

We were advised early on by a Play Therapist to keep on putting them back in bed if they got up, had a few terrible nights early on and quickly went with our instincts that they needed us to stay with them. I long for the day when they feel secure enough in their new home to drop off to sleep quickly or to be able to read for half an hour without freaking out.

Adopters are given so much conflicting advice and it's really hard to know what to do. I'm not saying it's easy for other parents of course, but I think it's harder when you haven't known your children from birth. For example, I was told I should always give them a choice. I should inform them that they may walk to school or be carried. I was not prepared for the child fixating on a third option the going into full on meltdown. Like all parents we try our best and ask advice along the way, and feel like we have usually got it wrong. This is compounded by how much prep adopters have to do and how much we have to prove we want our children, which does make it harder to ask for help or admit things are difficult.

It will help if you invest more time in your kids now. In the long run they will feel more and more secure and the 'problem' will gradually disappear. Maybe if you change your perception of the whole bedtime process and accept it as bonding/relaxation time for you as well as the kids, rather than a chore, your disappointment will disappear. In the end of the day, they are human beings, with feelings etc, not robots. I hope you can provide them with the emotional security they need without feeling resentful and wistful for your old life. It's gone forever. Accept it. Because you chose it.
I still lie with my 5yo at bedtime until he falls asleep because he needs me and I love the moments we share together. I wouldn't give it up before he wants to. Everything else can wait. Kids can't. They will grow and fly the nest before you know it. Embrace these moments and enjoy them. :)
Wishing you and your kids all the best.

By the way, my therapist totally denounces super nanny methods as cruel. I have embraced her philosophy and don't practice punishments, for example. And they don't need books, songs etc. They need YOU. Be there. That's the best you can do for your kids.

Have you heard of Bryan Post? He was adopted and has gone on to become an adopter. He also has a background in social work. He has a great book called "The Great Behaviour Breakdown" with chapter on bedtime/sleep from an attachment/adoption perspective.

You can sign up for emails from the Post Institute and he's got lots of videos on YouTube etc

Good luck

Not an adopter so I'm probably talking rubbish but certainly for my (birth) DS1, who is 3, bedtime and sleep is where all his anxiety and insecurity comes out. He's a fabulous little boy, with very secure attachment to me and DH, but he hates being on his own in bed and just wants us to stay with him. He also grinds his teeth in his sleep and wakes with bad dreams and wants a cuddle- I think nighttime is when he processes the difficult stuff (like 3 month old DS2!) He's much younger than your two of course OP, but I think it's quite natural to feel quite vulnerable at bedtime and want company. Equally it's natural for you to feel frustrated by the whole thing and want some time to do other things. But it's probably one of those things that will take time and acceptance of that might be the best option for your sanity (though equally I would definitely try a later bedtime to avoid it all getting long and drawn out).

Could you maybe consider them sharing a room? Maybe that would provide them with some security and comfort?
My daughter also got into a habit of having me wait in her room to fall asleep which went on for some months (and got longer and longer!) I tried to break it a few times and caught her on the 'right day' eventually and she was fine within a few days. I think we left her door ajar and pottered around upstairs so she knew we were there for a bit. Sometimes it's worth keeping trying to catch them at the right time.
Good luck!

We did gradual withdrawal and so that meant sitting right next to them, cuddling them. Then sitting next to them but just having a hand on the back, then sitting next to them but not touching, then sitting one 'bottom space' away, then a bit further, then at the end of the bed.....ideally it's gradual enough that they don't really notice the change too much. Crucially, if they wobble, you go back to the previous step for a while before trying again.

We got to the point that DH would sit in our bedroom until they went to sleep and he would say "Where's daddy going to be?" 'In your bedroom' "And where is DD1/DD2/DD3 going to be?" 'In my/our bedroom'. Then after that, there seemed to be an unspoken understanding that they enjoyed that, so it didn't matter that daddy goes downstairs now. So, every night they say the same thing, each of them knowing that he'll promptly come downstairs....but it is what they want to say.

Our bedtime with twinDD9 is similar and takes just as long. If it helps, I think it's pretty normal for some children. I am also a teacher so understand the tiredness! I do a massage and leave music playing on a playlist in the room. I stay for 2mins after the massage, as they need to know when I'm leaving as it's less stressful.

I imagine you're actually creating some incredibly valuable bonding and relaxation time for your children, so if you credit yourself for this it might seem less wasteful of your time, maybe, and seem more positive.

TooManyPetals it wasn't great but it was a last resort after years of bedtimes getting worse and ever longer and more drawn out. She had completely worked herself up into not being able to get to sleep or drop into a deep sleep as she was so hyper vigilant about when I was going to leave the room. So we would have hours and hours where she'd only sleep incredibly lightly and then shout for the next few hours if I'd moved. And I had to move - I had other children too.

She was exhausted, I was exhausted. So in the end yes I put her to bed, said I was leaving the room (not the house - I cancelled all evening activities and nearly a decade later I still go out less than once a month), gave her a kiss and left the room. After that she screamed, I told her I was still here and I loved her, she screamed... It was still shorter and took only a few nights (plus melatonin and other prescriptions from her consultant) before she actually relaxed into a shorter routine.

She still doesn't sleep brilliantly but these days it's drink of water, checking the time, a couple of other ritual checks, just to make sure I've kept to my word and I am still here.

Fwiw with another child I co-slept for over 5 years. But my daughter never wanted that - just wanted me to be within reach of her bed for ever longer hours. And it was an impossibility. It nearly broke our whole family. I hated hearing her scream for me. Buy the gentle option in our specific case was making things worse. A bit like settling in to nursery I guess - some children need a slow goodbye so they can adjust to the parents' absence, others need a very quick brisk bye, love you, because the anticipation is worse the longer it lasts.

I wouldn't recommend it to everyone. We discussed it with her consultant at the time (there are many issues). She didn't (and doesn't) want to cosleep. But she hates the moment of separation. Gentle fading out just prolonged that to sully levels. Once it had happened, she was ok much more quickly. Still is.

I'm sorry that's your childhood memory, must have been a horrible experience.

norm an acquaintance of mine had a prescription for melatonin for her baby. This was a few years ago in the UK. She didn't ask for it as she didn't know it existed or what it was. The baby (1yo) had never slept more than an hour at a time. A week's course meant that she started sleeping 3 and 4 hours at a time which was a great improvement.

So you can get it in the UK... but like pp I feel this is not the issue here. I agree that you (OP) could see these 2 hours as very valuable bonding time which your boys seem to need. Good luck!

This has given me such a lot to think about. I don't usually get views from adopters and birth parents at the same time, it's really interesting. As an adopter I of course want to bond with my children and of course for them to feel safe. I don't really see time with them as a waste of time, but I guess it does feel like that sometimes if in tired or have a lot on. I feel happy that they can settle with me there, if I couldn't calm them down it would be much worse. I feel like they are forming positive attachments to us, although we have a way to go. I really appreciate everyone's input and have a lot to reflect on.

OP, just curious as to why they have been adopted (as in away from their birth parents). If it's due to neglect for example, then I think that it's understandable for night times to be a bit stressful for your children. We usually get our children into a routine from a young age where they have usually learnt (over many years) that if they cry a parent comes to them. If this hasn't happened prior to them being adopted then they they might be going through the stage people mostly see during toddler years.

Something you could try (not sure how effective it would be) is getting a camera baby monitor and have the monitor in your sons room and the camera with you so he can still see you guys should he need?

I have no experience with adoption, but had a really bad childhood where I regressed when I eventually went to a place where I felt safe which is what could be happening in this situation?

We also co sleep whenever the children want to.

My trick is to make noise! Mine are younger, 6with asd and 4. Usual routine is bath bed, DH reads a story and I read to the other one, alternating each night. We then stay with them until they fall asleep. DS has improved and now about 30 minutes rather than 2 hours!

But, when DH is away, it changes as I can't be with both. Bath, story on sofa and then I go and tuck them both in. Music on if they want it. Then I go and hoover. Or bash pots around cleaning the kitchen. Move a bit of furniture. First few times I tried sitting quietly, but it was a nightmare, both up crying etc. They need to know I'm around, then they are happy to stay in bed and fall asleep and if I do something noisy, they can hear me.

DS was a marvellous sleeper as a baby and young kid, he used to settle on his own by 7 and would sleep through the night until 7 am, but just after turning 4, he just became a night owl.

I spent the next five years (I kid you not) trying to find a way to get him to be asleep before 10. I tried everything, nothing works. Every member of the family says I was the same. So I have come to accept him as he is.

I no longer expect him to be asleep early, it is not going to happen, so all electronics are handed back to me at 8, he has a bath/shower and goes to his room, he is allowed to read and do whatever he wants as long as he is not running around or waking me up with strong noises. I would say he normally falls asleep between 11:30 and 12:30. He is wide awake, dressed and ready for school by 7:15. (I never have to wake him up, he just does).

If anybody tells me it is my fault, they can come to sort him themselves. I am a firm believer in routines, I persevered for years and tried every piece of advice I found. if I couldn't sort him myself, nobody will.

I have been using this book

www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1433803186/sr=8-1-fkmr0/qid=1472762137/ref=olp_product_details?_encoding=UTF8&me=&qid=1472762137&sr=8-1-fkmr0

to help my almost seven year old dd and nine year old autistic ds to sleep. Both of my children struggle with anxiety and prior to starting to use this book, both needed me or dh to lie with them until they fell asleep. My seven year old is now able to get to sleep by herself. Our D's is taking longer but is progressing massively. He is now able to get to sleep alone in bed, as long as I am in the room with him. We will be phasing it out gently over the next few weeks.

I cannot recommend this book highly enough, there are so many helpful strategies inside and it is set out as a workbook with fun magic tricks with each lesxo .