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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Pardon?

520 replies

MothersGrim · 31/08/2016 19:04

AIBU to not bother with the word "Pardon" for my young children? It seems like a generational thing to me but my parents and in laws correct my young children when they ask "What?"

I was just curious what the expectation is nowadays, should I be teaching them 'pardon'? Is it bad manners not to Confused

OP posts:
DelicatePreciousThing1 · 01/09/2016 12:14

@Scuttle22
You think you will be "OK"? In what respect? I don't think you get this, do you? You can take the girl out of Brixton but you can't take Brixton out of the girl...
Or wherever. Lol

user1471734618 · 01/09/2016 12:16

oh a bit like the company called 'Crapper' that made bathroom equipment. I actually stayed in a house back in the 80s that had a 'Crapper' loo.

QOD · 01/09/2016 12:17

What

Is just rude

DelicatePreciousThing1 · 01/09/2016 12:18

@3Eggses
I would not say serviette - I would say paper napkin.

derxa · 01/09/2016 12:22

Harry Grin

DelicatePreciousThing1 · 01/09/2016 12:23

Re gardyloo:

SYNONYMOUS with Scots but almost certainly of French origin, gardyloo was a warning for passersby to watch out for waste water from freshly emptied chamber pots.
In use since the medieval period, pedestrians knew to move sharply out the way when gardyloo was hollered from the upper floors of a house or tenement building. Narrow alleys and thoroughfares would make this task more tricky than it sometimes ought to have been, especially in space-starved cities such as Edinburgh where the cry was heard often.
It is likely that gardyloo comes from the French term regardez l’eau, which was also a warning to people that toilet water was about to be emptied onto the street. Legend has it that the 12th century French King Phillipe Auguste was covered in the contents of a chamber pot, and decreed that all upstairs residents were obliged to warn pedestrians before throwing out waste water.
Proper sewage systems meant that the term became obsolete by the 1930s, but the word is far from forgotten.

3Eggses · 01/09/2016 12:29

I would not say serviette - I would say paper napkin.

But who would care? If you asked me for a napkin/serviette/tissue/paper napkin to go with your cake, you'd get the same thing. I wouldn't guffaw in your face because you used a poor man's french word!

I think cloakroom might be the super posh toilet room word of peference. I remember my very, very confused Czech coworker looking at me for help when someone asked her where ours was Grin

MariposaUno · 01/09/2016 12:31

I think it is regional more than anything. My df is incredibly polite and is from London and says pardon, serviette etc, as for me pardon doesn't feel natural to say unless iv accidently burped and the context is forgive me.
If I accidentally fart in public I fall about laughing and apoligise or I keep on walking.

First time I heard the word serviette instead a coaster my face went Hmm but it really doesn't matter.

I say what or sorry if I have misheard someone or someone wants to speak to me.

DelicatePreciousThing1 · 01/09/2016 12:44

@3Eggses
I have no idea who would care. My point is that there is an alternative way of referring to a napkin made out of paper. Hmm

ligiligiligi · 01/09/2016 12:58

'Maybe because it rhymes with poo' Grin

PrivatePike · 01/09/2016 13:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

user1471734618 · 01/09/2016 13:14

yes....a paper napkin ....Grin

Televisiontelevision · 01/09/2016 13:23

I had no clue that pardon was common. In fact I was told that what was common. But I did grow up on a council estate in a posh area, so who knows.

Personally I think that neither is particularly low class and it seems snobby to proclaim one as less desirable.

amusedbush · 01/09/2016 13:41

I always thought that "what?" what rude. I think it sounds horrible and blunt, actually.

I usually say "sorry?"

TheFallenMadonna · 01/09/2016 14:16

U is for Upper class. When did it all get shifted down so that it is middle class (def Non U) to say napkin and "common" to say serviette? Pretty sure the Hon Miss Mitford would have dismissed us all as non U, and not on the basis of vocab...

Dogcatred · 01/09/2016 15:00

It may sound a joke but read today's papers and the issue about things like brown shoes and the wrong tie in the City. Just make sure your children know what the rules are and play by the rules IF but only if they want those kinds of jobs. These kinds of rules are not very hard to follow if you choose to do so.

rachel70j · 01/09/2016 15:06

I beg your pardon to me is extremely savage to me. Grin

PrivatePike · 01/09/2016 15:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

user1471734618 · 01/09/2016 15:10

yes it is used in a savage way by teachers.
I remember sitting in a school meeting and the HOY was sitting copying out an email print I had sent her earlier, into her diary, refusing to make eye contact. I said 'I see you are having a nice time copying out that email I sent you" (because I can read upside down quite easily)....
Any way she RARED up as they say and said "I BEG YOUR PARDON'? in in incredibly passive aggressive way.
I told her it was OK, she didnt need to beg....Grin

BeautyGoesToBenidorm · 01/09/2016 15:11

In my family, it's 'You what?'

To me, 'I beg your pardon?' means you're asking for an apology for what you're about to say.

Spaghettidog · 01/09/2016 15:26

I'm not obsessed with social class at all, I'm just pointing out that there's no concrete reason why 'pardon' is any more or less 'polite' than 'what?', 'I'm sorry?' or any of the other options for things to say when you didn't hear someone, any more than 'settee' is a worse word than sofa, or there's anything inherently terrible about holding your knife like a pen - it's just a longstanding verbal class marker, nothing to do with actual politeness, good manners etc.

Whether the fact that it has traditionally marked you out as aspirational lower-middle-class makes a difference to your vocabulary is up to you, obviously.

What I I know, I'm a foreign prole. Not my circus, not my monkeys etc...

Dogcatred · 01/09/2016 16:10

FT today:
City dress code ties graduates in knots
European investment bankers can get away with wearing brown shoes but it is 'unacceptable' for their British counterparts

Brown shoes, loud ties and ill-fitting suits have all scuppered the chances of graduates hoping to become investment bankers, according to a report written for the Social Mobility Commission that says “polish” still helps you get ahead in the City of London.

The report, entitled “Socio-Economic Diversity in Life Sciences and Investment Banking”, found that dress codes were still among the “relatively opaque codes of conduct” in the City.

“Issues relating to dress may seem both superficial and relatively simple for individuals from all backgrounds to adopt,” the report says. “However, interviewees suggested that they do play a material role in the selection process as demonstration of ‘fit’.”

One executive told the survey that students from non-privileged backgrounds often wore oversized suits and did not know which tie to wear

While employers were relaxed about European investment bankers wearing brown shoes, this was generally considered “unacceptable” for their British counterparts. One executive quoted in the survey said students from non-privileged backgrounds often had the wrong hair cut or were wearing an oversized suit. “They don’t know which tie to wear,” the executive said.

An interviewee was advised after an interview that he had performed well but was apparently not the right fit for that particular bank. “He looked at me and said, ‘see that tie you’re wearing? It’s too loud. Like, you can’t wear that tie with that suit’.”

Alan Milburn, a former Labour cabinet minister, was appointed chairman of the Social Mobility Commission by David Cameron, the former prime minister. Mr Cameron’s successor, Theresa May, has also prioritised attempts to improve life chances for people of all backgrounds.

In 2014, a report by the Sutton Trust examined the educational background of 500 leaders and 1,800 new recruits in financial services. It found that 34 per cent of new entrants had attended a fee-paying school, against just 7 per cent of the population. In private equity, some 69 per cent had been to private schools.

Why French businessmen dress better

Classic smart look gives them an edge on UK counterparts, reflects Adam Thomson

The report published on Thursday was written by four academics on behalf of the commission. It made no mention of dress codes for women, saying: “Where issues relating to dress were raised by interviewees, it was almost always in relation to male business attire, underlining the strong association between investment banking and masculinity.”

It further found that successful applicants for the banking industry had far more technical qualifications than those from a generation ago, with graduates in economics, accounting, business, mathematics and engineering doing particularly well.

But it considered evidence that some aspirant bankers could be ruled as unfit on the basis of “speech, accent, dress or mannerisms” — even when they had excellent technical expertise.

Hiring managers considered that these characteristics, summarised as “polish”, reassured clients about their advisers’ expertise and experience.

Clothing was just one element of a wider projection of “cultural competence” including background, family connections and foreign travel, it found.

One executive was quoted saying that applicants would “stick out like a sore thumb” if they did not look comfortable in a suit. “If you’ve got the wrong cut of suit, if you are wearing the wrong shoes, or tie, or you look awkward in a suit, you’re done before you start.”

A young worker in the City said he had gone “into my shell” in his first week because he felt so left out. “They spoke about things I had no knowledge, they started talking about half Windsor tie and a full Windsor tie and all this kind of stuff.”

City executives interviewed for the report seemed largely oblivious about how these rigid dress codes could affect diversity in the Square Mile, the report says.

The report also examined the life sciences industry, although it found that data on the educational *background of employees was not available. However, it did conclude that the profile of “professional-level scientific jobs” was skewed towards graduates from relatively privileged backgrounds.

The study was written by Dr Louise Ashley, of Royal Holloway University of London, and Dr Holly Birkett, Professor Jo Duberley and Dr Etlyn Kenny from Birmingham university. "

BertrandRussell · 01/09/2016 16:50

As I said, it's all the rules of the club. And you may not ever want to join the club, but it's some times helpfu,to be able to tell whether somebody is pretending to be something they're not. Particularly if they are using it to look down on you.

And there are jobs that we or our children might want to get where not knowing the rules can put you at a disadvantage. Crap- but true.

Scuttle22 · 01/09/2016 16:59

The only thing that bugs my DH is when he says how do you do and they say fine thanks!Grin

NataliaOsipova · 01/09/2016 17:01

My DD's friend goes to a school where they insist on all children asking to go "to the lavatory". The fact that they also teach them to say "pardon?" does make me chuckle.....