So fucking cross - £45 Clarks shoes not even fucking leather???????

[inlovewithhubby]

As above. Two pairs bought today for 4 and 6 year old. Bought patent for first time ever as my last child starts school and I caved. Just took the stickers out and discovered to my horror they aren't even leather?? How on earth can they justify that cost for man made fibre shoes? I am going to kick off massively, I got them in John Lewis so I'm starting there, but does anyone know how they manage it?

Man made fibre makes feet sweat. Leather also 'gives' in a way man made fibre doesn't. It's also cheap and I could have got a pair of plastic shoes off the shelf for about £7 from any supermarket. I thought I was paying for quality but I'm clearly not.

Interestingly there is a confusing sign on the labels if both pairs which resembles the leather sign, but they then clearly state that they are man made fibre. Im initially going after misrepresentation but i didn't even look at the signs - I just presumed that a 40 plus quid pair of Clarks shoes would be leather. AI really being U for having that expectation?

Agree with Wannabe about the conditions in leather manufacturing - just wanted to add that children are suffering in the industry as well!

I think there a stop between normal life and veganism that people could strive towards Wannabe

I'm vegan, and I consider I live a normal life - I just remove certain items from my diet. Looking at the research that tells me that human beings are herbivores, I believe it's the omnivores amongst us that should be looking to eat a normal diet!

Assuming that shoes made from plastic are more ethical is more than a little naive. The petro-chemical industry which produces the plastics causes just as much toxicity to the environment and cancer to its workers as the leather industry in developing countries, arguably more. Plastic is NOT an ethical choice.

Looking at the research that tells me that human beings are herbivores, I believe it's the omnivores amongst us that should be looking to eat a normal diet!

I'd be curious to see that. Horses are herbivores and don't have (many) canine teeth. Generally herbivores digest food twice and chew the cud/ eat their droppings/ have multiple chambers to their stomachs/ rely on bacterial digestion more than enzymes. Grass is pretty tough to digest and herbivores also have very tough teeth and far more pronounced jaws than humans.

As far as I'm aware, if you gave a physical anthropologist a human jaw bone they'd piece together an animal that's broadly omnivorous. Still, if you have evidence to the contrary, I'd be curious to see it.

I don't think there is a problem with being omnivorous. The issue is the size of the human population and the resultant industrial manufacture of food, which exploits animals.

Sorry Bread, I don't mean to call you 'not normal'

Just that average human in this country eats a shit load of cruelty chicken, cruelty eggs, consumes cruelty clothes put together by children, over consumes vastly. That's an average life.

I think veganism looks really difficult. I found being veggie too difficult (a long time ago) and I think veganism looks like a massive amount of work. I have eaten the occasional nice vegan meal but it takes a load of effort. I would also find it really boring without dairy. Vegan desserts are mostly horrible. And I've never eaten a nice vegan cake. Vegan chocolate is proper grim.

So I think we should try and strive for less of the average life and more of the free range in general.

Humans ARE NOT herbivores. Grrrrrr, there are plenty of reasons not to eat meat or to eat less meat but saying that humans are not omnivores is silly and detracts from any proper arguments.

OP, if you have been shoe shopping at John Lewis with two DC then I think it's perfectly reasonable to be unreasonably shouty if you want but maybe some and might be better.

Pah...I know I'm meant to be gone. But this has triggered a really good discussion. One I feel strongly about.

GeneralBobbit. A sheep or a cow who lives primarily outdoors, is looked after and treated well prior to slaughter has obviously enjoyed a good life.

However where a vegan mindset (for want of a better word) kicks in is in the moment one realises that though we treat animals as property, they are in fact sentinent, feeling beings who simply have the misfortune to be considered less worthy of life than us and unable to defend themselves against us.

This is not to say that I would choose to save the life of a cow before that of a human. My natural biological instinct is geared towards the protection of my own kind. That is not wrong.

But that said, the animals we rear and slaughter at will for our own enjoyment are no threat to us. We cause unnecessary suffering to thinking and feeling animals because we find the end products convenient and pleasurable.

And in that there is no middle ground. No "stopping point between veganism and normal life".

You either believe animals belong to us to use as we wish, regardless of the suffering it inevitably causes, or you don't.

A battery hen, a calf removed at birth from it's dairy farm mother, a factory farmed pig. A free range hen, an organic grass fed cow. Their lives and levels of suffering differ. But their end is the same.

Pain, distress and premature death. We cause it. We support it. We pay for it. Because we believe they are less worthy of life.

But it is unnecessary. It is possble to live a happy healthy life without participating in or supporting the suffering of other creatures.

And so the most pressing question is not how to find a middle ground between veganism and 'normality'. It is, if you can live a full healthy and happy life without causing unnecessary harm to others, why wouldn't you?

Start your own bloody (irony) thread.

On a seperate note, it is not conclusive that humans are herbivores. There is good evidence to suggest we are in fact omniverous.

But this does not mean that we HAVE to be.

It also fails to take into account that the playing field is not level.

A lion may chase a gazelle, catch it, rip it to pieces and eat it.

Altetnatively the lion may chase the gazelle and lose it's prey. In the natural world, predated animals have defenses and skills at their disposal to avoid capture and death.

In an industrialised agricultural context, the animals we prey upon are denied any defense. We are stronger and smarter. And they (the animals) suffer for it.

Nope, disagree with you Wannabe

I think there's a big difference between eating an animal that's lived a really horrible life like a broiler chicken and eating a cow that's lived two years on grass and is then killed (humanely)

While animals are sentient, I don't think if handled correctly that they anticipate and fear death as we do. I think it is possible to kill animals humanely, making sure they're not aware of their coming death and doing it quickly.

I'm very saddened by your position that you think it's the same just because you think you shouldn't be eating them at all. That's a very extreme point of view.

Haven't read the FIVE pages about shoes, so forgive me if we've already covered this but...

www.clarks.co.uk/p/26115741

These are the only patent school shoes at £45 on Clarks website. They are leather.

YABU.

Oh I think it's unfair to say start your own thread, threads often evolve or go off topic and make great discussions.

I admit I'm a complete hypocrite. I love meat and love to think i buy ethical. but then tell me a dairy cow gets its young taken away at birth and it feels grubby and it becomes clear that I don't. Incidentally my free range chicken tonight was really stringy and horrible to eat, as they often are (I'm told because they actually have a life and their muscles get properly used) and at those times I would rather eat an aubergine, but it feels more like hard work to get an aubergine to taste delicious and I accept that this is ignorance rather than reality.

Overly I'm currently on both of those and feeling much more zen 😏

Ok. You disagree. Luckily for you, most people do and life is set up to cater to your opinions.

But why would you be saddened because we disagree?

I would be interested to hear what led you to believe animals do not fear death as we do.

I would also like to suggest that given choice a cow killed at 2 years of age would probably, quite naturally prefer to remain in his field and see out his life in full.

The desire to live is innate in all animals. We are not so very different.

Did you find the toy in the shoe op, or was it just an empty hole?

Glad you don't feel hijacked OP! Am still a bit sorry for potentially ruining your evening.

Wannabe

Pah...I know I'm meant to be gone. But this has triggered a really good discussion. One I feel strongly about

This isn't a really good discussion. It's a boring, one sided and it's spoiling the OPs ranty thread.

I know you said you didn't want to preach but you are preaching. You are a vagan, I get it. I occasionally eat meat. You do your thing and I'll do mine....

Holy fuckery
Haven't rtft
But your kids have school shoes that fit, wear them and be happy

You're going after them for misrepresentation on signage you didn't even look at? Yeah, ok.

Overly.

Boring? Really? Ok. Which bit?

I thought wannabes posts were engaging and compassionate, not boring. I'm not a vegan either.

Bit more, Bobbit - www.greenshoes.co.uk/shop/p/children/shoes/badger-boot/3/0/26

Me too msmims,
wannabe you raise some really interesting points. Thank you for making me think this evening

You are a vagan

What's that? A vegan with a vadge?

Thanks MsMims and coughingbean. 😊

There's mountains of info on the web dealing with these sorts of issues and IMO it's really crucial to talk about.

A few films worth watching: Cowspiracy, Forks Over Knives and Earthlings (Earthlings is quite distressing however...)

I'm saddened because you think that free range, lower consumption of meat, grass fed, longer lived animals is not worth bothering about because you think they shouldn't be eaten at all

There's no shades of grey in your argument, just black and white

I think it's a worthwhile goal to eat less meat and to eat free range and organic from small producers close to you.

I'm sure you're aware that the world can't just turn vegan tomorrow and that reduction gradually and naturally is the only way to prevent economic meltdown