AIBU to think if you want more people to study languages, why make it so difficult to be successful in the exams?

[annoyedandfrustratedagain]

Yet again the top end of my GCSE languages groups, with the exception of the very able, have achieved on average a grade or two lower in their languages GCSE than they have in other subjects.

We live in a country which is not known for being the most enthusiastic at learning foreign languages and I'm starting to wonder whether this is because it is so difficult to get the top grades at GCSE and A Level.

In my experience, for a lot of kids by the time they get into Y10, any love of language learning is quashed by constant pressure to achieve on the exams and some of the content we have to cover is completely irrelevant to today's teenagers.

I love languages, they fascinate me and the thrill of being able to speak to someone in their own language still gets me when I go abroad today. But how can I convince my students that learning a language is worthwhile when a. realistically when you go abroad, most people can speak some English anyway (and want to at every available opportunity) and b. they exam boards make it so hard for you to get a decent grade?

AIBU to think that if the government/exam boards want more youngsters to study a foreign language, instead of making the exams harder (which they are doing year on year), they should make them easier for the kids to be successful in? The content and grammar they have to be able to use after a few lessons per week for 5 years amazes me! I wish I could just teach languages for the love of language learning, not to be constantly jumping through ever changing hoops, predetermined by someone else as to what a successful linguist looks like. Rant over, sorry I'm just so disappointed for my students

I was at the top of my GCSE language classes and still only got a B, then top of my A level class and only got Ds. Went to uni and couldn't handle the standard and quite a few of us had to change courses/drop out. It seemed the teaching we had wasn't at the right level for the exams or our age group. Not saying anything against the teachers as they were all great, but the level they were teaching wasn't anything like the level some of the other students at uni had received at their colleges.

I think other countries need to learn the language from an early age. It's a need to learn that makes it important. Not learning because it's good to do. We don't need to learn another language. Other countries do need to, so they do.

I'm amazed by how little vocabulary drilling there is in the UK - learning long lists of vocal is de rigeur in most countries. And it works.

Although in India there are some right corkers in the list of mandatory words that all students need to learn to pass their Higher English exams. Incredibly "Raj" words that no-one in the UK has used since about 1923. Which explains some of the very formal language Indians can use - sounding very foreign to our ears.

They also learn some really odd sentences/phrases/words. "Do the needful" and "prepone" are my two favourites!

Another MFL teacher. Results today disappointing. Very clear case for re-marking of written CAs. Grades are way off. I have A students with A work (you know the ones!) who have got Bs on the written. I am prepared to accept a high A as a difference of opinion but no way on earth is the work a B.

MFL as taught in my kids' schools at least, falls way behind my expectations. They memorise the oral exam beforehand

You realise that has nothing to do with teaching and everything to do with the way the exam is?

Cannot - same here with the written CA. A* students given B.

DC3 (year 10) thought the lady in the bakery probably wouldn't be interested in the paragraphs in German he'd learnt by heart on his school day and his school uniform for his German oral exam. I taught him myself how to order what he needed. Problem with Germans is the moment they get a whiff of the fact that you're English, they start to talk to you in English.

As a PP said - where to start with MFLs? English as a MFL for others is an obvious choice and there is so much exposure to English abroad, which helps with language learning. But what languages should we be studying? A better understanding of our own for starters would help.

My exam results were quite disappointing today as well, but it was the Listening exam that brought them down. I wouldn't have predicted that from all the past papers we had done beforehand, but I do feel bad that they may have had false confidence.

Nat - which board? We are AQA. We are literally sitting here now going through every assessment as we are so shocked. They seem right for C/B but it is insulting to the A/A* students to suggest they are worth the same as the others. Can feel some re-marking coming on!

We used edexcel.

I posted about this before as my DS was fast-tracking French www.mumsnet.com/Talk/secondary/2525079-Is-it-me-or-is-the-French-GCSE-a-complete-waste-of-time

My DS did French since year R - they had a French teacher come in once a week for half an hour. I don't think he knew any more French in Year 7 than I did in 1986 having never done French before. DD is the year below DS and started German in Year 7 so had no previous knowledge - she is apparently doing very well and will be sitting the new style GCSE in 2019.

DS is waiting for his French GCSE result (he can't go into school to collect today and he's not sure if it will be posted to him or he will just get it in September). He was hoping to get a B, he worked very hard, but based on the above, I think he's more likely to get a C. He's not a natural linguist but was put in for fast-track as he was in the top stream and got satisfactory results in the previous assessments.

He's just glad now that he doesn't have to do French any more and can now start his Computer Science GCSE. It's sad really that he's crammed a GCSE into 3 years and he's just glad to see the back of it rather than getting any enjoyment out of learning a language.

Can I just jump in cannotlogin and natweb we're AQA too. Our writing was marked down. A* kids getting Bs here too. Bonkers. Then, horrifically Half of our cohort got an E in the listening exam. Despite getting Bs on average across other skills and getting Bs + on all the mocks. What the hell happened?!

I don't know. Glad it's not just me. The head was going nuts as our % is way down. Feel so bad for them 'cos they really did work hard.,

What the hell happened?!

I suppose

• teaching for exams instead for language understanding etc (very easy to get bad grade if exam suddenly is differen to what has been taught)
• not enough practice/homework/study by pupils
• blip on the day

Cannotlogin - we're AQA too. Interesting to hear you've had the same iszue. There's no way that a couple of our pieces were Bs.

Dd is in year nine, she always gets top marks (ASD and an ability to memorise and repeat word perfect helps enormously) She certainly is able to converse better than I could back in the days of o' level, she can watch tv shows in French and understand what's being said easier than I could at the same age and she can translate French text but she doesn't have the knowledge of grammar that we were taught.
I remember reciting French verbs ad nauseum, learning all those tenses where dd would struggle with this as it's not how she is taught. She probably won't choose GCSE French as an option because she doesn't enjoy it all that much tbh in spite of finding it pretty easy.

Fourcorneredcircle - Yep our grades for one of the papers were way down on what they'd been achieving all year. They needed 41/45 for an A* in one of the papers! The final question was daft enough for them to lose 4 marks on that alone. (German)

I am still a bit peeved about my (2001) GCSE in French. I got As and A*s in everything apart from short course RE and French which were Bs. I was in the top set class so was also made, instead of one of my French classes per week, to take foundation German where the max I could get was a C so the school could claim more C and above passes. Maybe if they'd let me have an extra hour of French for 2 years I wouldn't have got a B! What really did us all in though was a fast, obscure listening exam tape where the whole class got Ds and below.

I went on to do French and Spanish at A-Level (having never done Spanish - I started from scratch with a small group of about 10 at sixth form), got an A and B, and then went to Durham to do languages so the ability was clearly there - but my point is that even back then they had such low expectations of our language grades that they would rather we all took 2 and dropped our grades so they could say we'd "passed". I can't remember a word of German, incidentally.

I am a (relatively newly qualified) MFL teacher from abroad and thought my colleagues were pulling my leg when they told me how GCSEs work here! I already like the new GCSEs, much more "proper" language learning and none of this learning off by heart nonsense.

The attitude to language learning is the problem here, I think. I started learning English when I was 10, 5 hours a week. English was (and is) one of the core subjects. When I started uni it was expected that I could access scientific literature in English and discuss on a near-native level.

I have to agree that the motivation to learn English was immense, who wouldn't want to understand song lyrics or watch MTV (those were the days!)?

We went to Sweden in the summer, and the level of English of 11 year olds there is humiliating compared to what our 11 year olds can do.

MFL isn't given the same curriculum time as it should. I agree somewhat OP, but feel that actually it should be given greater importance in school and in society; part of my masters was why pupils don't 'invest' in languages like they do other subjects and sadly peoples' opinions of it being 'hard' and 'not worthwhile' play a large part. I cannot recall the study but yes, languages are traditionally associated by pupils as being difficult, like maths- and this is why schools now often only enter the most able pupils 😞 As for not having to memorise like some posts have suggested!! About 4000 words is needed for the foundation paper to get a C...

I also agree with the english grammar not being taught properly being a reason...
there is a reason why my company's editor is polish, her grammar and spelling is impeccable!

The iGCSEs don't have the same level of rote learning - that's why they're seen as being better.

I teach, but not languages. I think we have an attitude problem towards languages as a nation and the late start in learning them devalues their importance to students who may only learn them for 3 years at 2 or 3 hours a week.

I did A-level French in the late days of older style A-levels (pre AS) and having to study classic French literature like Moliere with no previous background of French literature was an enormous leap from GCSE. I know about complex grammar from A-level French rather than English. There has been more focus on grammar from this year's SATs, but that's been a fiasco. It's also been presented as a gratutious slog from the powers that be. If you had a well prepared curriculum with appropriate staffing introducing grammar with the context of languages, then that would kill two birds with one stone. (Not a criticism of teachers, it's a systemic issue)

I've learned French, German and Spanish to varying levels, but I don't know until my DCs are put into classes at secondary school, what language they will learn. Many schools will split the year group in half and teach different languages. Therefore it would be difficult to create a background of exposure to the language that my DCs will learn to assist them with learning.

As to exam board issues, I have no current experience. Anything is possible, and that's not always good...

Yep AQA here. A* pieces awarded a B when they're way ahead of the other pieces being awarded a B. Madness. And a bit soul destroying.