AIBU to think if you want more people to study languages, why make it so difficult to be successful in the exams?

[annoyedandfrustratedagain]

Yet again the top end of my GCSE languages groups, with the exception of the very able, have achieved on average a grade or two lower in their languages GCSE than they have in other subjects.

We live in a country which is not known for being the most enthusiastic at learning foreign languages and I'm starting to wonder whether this is because it is so difficult to get the top grades at GCSE and A Level.

In my experience, for a lot of kids by the time they get into Y10, any love of language learning is quashed by constant pressure to achieve on the exams and some of the content we have to cover is completely irrelevant to today's teenagers.

I love languages, they fascinate me and the thrill of being able to speak to someone in their own language still gets me when I go abroad today. But how can I convince my students that learning a language is worthwhile when a. realistically when you go abroad, most people can speak some English anyway (and want to at every available opportunity) and b. they exam boards make it so hard for you to get a decent grade?

AIBU to think that if the government/exam boards want more youngsters to study a foreign language, instead of making the exams harder (which they are doing year on year), they should make them easier for the kids to be successful in? The content and grammar they have to be able to use after a few lessons per week for 5 years amazes me! I wish I could just teach languages for the love of language learning, not to be constantly jumping through ever changing hoops, predetermined by someone else as to what a successful linguist looks like. Rant over, sorry I'm just so disappointed for my students

Sashh could you clarify what you mean by 'we are bad at teaching languages' please?

I think the one thing we can do is improve competency in our OWN language. I did well at German and French GCSEs but was utterly flummoxed at (German) A level when the study of the grammar became more intensive. I did enjoy going to Germany though and speaking the language, which I could do quite well managed to pull successfully .
I had a Spanish speaking boyfriend in the UK for a bit and managed to pick up a fair bit of useful Spanish and, when I eventually moved to Italy, found learning Italian fascinating, mainly through speaking and using it. I eventually got to grips with the grammar books, in part due to the comprehensive study of English grammar in order to TEFL it. Was very aware that I had to gain an advantage over my (ok, initially mute when it came to the speaking side of it) students of English, who were often very good at learning to read and write.

In my experience other counties have a far better chance of learning English because they intensively study their OWN language and are able to apply these skills to learning other languages.

I don't think it will do any good to make GCSEs easier but I think more emphasis have to be put on the advantages of speaking other languages.

I don't think the exams should be made easier I think the key is to start learning languages much earlier, by the time they start learning in Y7 it's too late they need to start from preschool. Some primary schools are starting to offer languages but quite often when those kids go to secondary schools they have to start a different language instead.

My school wasn't too bad at language teaching (aside from the one teacher who went crazy half way through my A-levels), but the content was frankly pointless and ridiculous. I've done much better since then by learning by immersion and watching TV.

However, i will point out that accessing materials in another language is still a bit of a chore if you live in the UK. For example, German TV is nearly impossible to get (you have to hunt it down over various websites and even then it won't always play), and while Amazon means books, DVDs and CDs are within reach, its hard to 'browse'. If you're going to learn a language properly, you really need access to those materials and not just in school time.

Secondary MFL teacher here. I understand your frustration, although I don't think it's really the exams that are the problem.
Here's what I think needs doing for starters:

Proper mfl teaching in primary schools, plus co-operation between the primary mfl teachers and their local secondary mfl depts to ensure as much continuity as possible

A serious think about how many languages should be offered, to which kids and at which ages (e.g. at my local secondary, all kids start French and Spanish in year 7, which I think is insanely confusing and results in too little teaching time per language).

Also I just don't think languages have high enough status, though I don't know what we do about that. They seem to be seen as both difficult and unimportant by many people.

The only place I've taught where mfl was really really successful was at a private girls' school. Partly because they were very able of course, but also because many of the parents spoke several languages (for work or otherwise ) and fully recognised their importance.

Anyone who says that it's the teaching that's at fault has perhaps not seen first hand the amazing amount of effort, thought and enthusiasm that goes into most teachers' lesson planning (mfl or otherwise), often in the face of huge pressure from all sides and reluctance and poor behaviour from many pupils. It's possible that we may need to in somehow totally re-think the way languages are taught and presented in this country, but individual teachers and departments are not generally given the autonomy to do that!

SignoraStronza - that is exactly what has happened though. Current KS2 SATs have a massive increase in grammar content. They aren't very popular, but they may at least have a good knock-on effect on MFL!

Signora you make some very valid points there. The literacy levels of some of my students do slow down how quickly they can make progress in a second language.

Maybe I should reword my AIBU which was written in frustration this morning to:

AIBU to think that in order to improve success in examinations and make studying a language more appealing to youngsters, we need to start language teaching earlier by specialists to give them a fighting chance? (Let's face it, a lot of kids chose options based on how easy they will find the subject and how well they think they will do in the exam, in my experience anyway).

It's not that I really want the exams to be easier - why settle for mediocrity? I want to turn out talented, capable, enthusiastic linguists! I'm just so frustrated that I see some of my students working so hard but because of the system they are in (not a lot of curriculum time, big classes of very mixed ability, not starting to learn properly until Y7, exam boards changing the goal posts etc). I love my subject, I love teaching and the kids I work with. It just upsets me that some will be disappointed today when they've worked hard and haven't reaped the rewards.

Ha my reworded AIBU isn't that great either!

There are two very different issues here. One is the lack of level playing field in terms of examination/results, and another is the national strategy for learning languages.

I have to say that MFL teachers, in each of the schools I have worked in, have been amongst the most competent and hard-working of all staff, and I am sure that OP is the same. Asserting that she isn't up to the job is simply ridiculous based on this thread alone.
Teaching is not the issue, but the system may be. Amount of hours dedicated to MFL as opposed to Maths and English, starting in y7 or scattergun approach to primary MFL; these are all issues. But the real problem discussed here is, as OP describes, an inequality in the grading of exams. I can't find data on this but it is being collected as we speak, and is a recognised problem.

Regarding the national strategy, this changes so frequently it's become destructive. Remember the Rose report anyone? Primary MFL, compulsory MFL, EBacc... Do we want linguists or not?

I found language GCSE evams very easy but wouls say that we as a country are culturally bad at learning languages rather than bad at teaching them. There [was] a cultural aversion to grammar in the 80s/90s and I learned most of my English grammar in latin lessons at a private school. As well as timetabled lessons we had 3-4 person conversation classes with native speaker every week for 2 years.

Parents were also in a position to spend money on resources - I bought a lot of trashy teenage books in French (Buffy, Angel) as well as the likes of Harry Potter - starting with books where I knew the story.

The standards compared with old style o-levels were different. We did an o-level translation (from the year of my birth) as prep for the s-level translation paper. S-level made the first year of my degree so much easier as I had done translation before.

Also I think a lot on this thread are thinking of GCSEs as they took them in the 90s etc. They have changed significantly in recent years. Many private schools opt for IGCSE over GCSE for a variety of reasons. One is stability in terms of grading, another is that they are considered better preparation for A level. My DC go to a prep school where MFL is taught be specialists from Reception, and by Y7 they spend 6 hours per week on languages. This is not deemed possible in the state sector.

My Danish OH didn't start formally learning English until the equivalent of Year 7, however the exposure Danish kids have to English is huge and it's totally unfair comparison to talk about Danes learning English as if it was the same as Brits learning French.

Totally agree we need to start teaching languages earlier and have dedicated MFL teachers at primary level. My friend is a primary teacher and turned up to her new job only to be informed she would be teaching Spanish. She doesn't speak Spanish, it wasn't taught at our secondary school. She is one step ahead of her students, that's not good.

Agree also with more study of English language and better access to resources.

No, in Denmark parents don't have to take any sort of active role in supporting English. English is everywhere so exposure doesn't have to be forced. Most TV shows are not dubbed only subtitled in Danish, English music, English slogans in adverts/shop windows/t-shirts.

gcse is grade a2 isn't it. so fairly basic.
if so yabu
it's a subject like any other, if you don't put enough work in and/or the teacher us shit the grades will suffer.

Ime, MFL as taught in my kids' schools at least, falls way behind my expectations. They memorise the oral exam beforehand, fgs!

I did O level French back in the day and it was a lot harder than the stuff my kids did.
Dumbed down indeed.

What could we do better?

Start children speaking their first MFL very, very young. Reception is by no means too early to start learning nursery rhymes in 2 languages, numbers, colours etc.

Focus more on understanding grammar in our own language - how can you possibly understand when to use a grammatical construct in a foreign language if you don't recognise that construct as such in your own?

Greater access to the rich immersive experience of the language. Films, books, TV shows, comics - all ideal for helping children really learn a language. Hearing it more tends to equal understanding it more for most children.

As much focus on written as on spoken language - the two support each other. Although, TBF, we're not the only country that isn't great at this. I'm frequently shocked at how poor our French relatives children are at written English, even though they could pass as bilingual in spoken language.

Just a few starters for ten.

If it was just down to the quality of teaching, then it's strange that the Danes I know don't speak the other languages such as German that they learn in school fluently. Another Danish friend has never managed to learn Finnish despite living there - all too easy to rely on English!

I don't think it helps to pretend that it's all down to the quality of the teaching or the age at which we start to teach languages.

I'm not sure about easier but definitely more relevant - where's the learning of useful phrases in GCSE languages? Last time I checked very few conversations begin with where you went on your last holiday and why recycling is good for the environment...

Oh the 'memorise the oral exam' thing is utterly ridiculous, but it's been that way for donkey's years, and then even the writing went that way too ('prepare' for controlled writing assessment - i.e. memorise it - using textbooks, dictionaries etc, then write it - i.e. regurgitate it - in controlled conditions ). There needs to be an oral exam where you can't memorise it - otherwise everyone will continue to do so. Imo all oral exams should be done by external examiners. List of possible topics should be given in advance, but no actual questions!

I get very frustrated about this. And no, I don't think you can blame the teachers because the groundwork of language teaching should be done before the students step foot in the classroom.

Other countries have much, much more exposure to other languages - on TV/ cinema and even toys. We dub, when other countries subtitle. I've heard live dubbing here, when in another country I've heard the live broadcast in the foreign language and translated later.

Primary teachers are told to teach a foreign language that they have never learnt - that's not their fault... If you want something done properly you need to get specialists in.

I think we also need to decide which language(s) to focus on - French/ german/ Spanish/ Chinese. We have a mishmash that never gets the chance to get off the ground - Spanish at primary and then French later on.

All language learning is good, but not giving the opportunity to do it properly is not good.

Most other countries start foreign languages, often English, at nursery and then a second language at 8 so big difference and in my experience with learning languages it takes time plain and simple.
Also, kids then wouldn't stand a chance when attempting exams like the JLPT (Japanese Language Proficiency Test) or the equivalents for other languages.
So start earlier and use someone that can actually speak the language fluently to teach it!