to think Lynsey Sharp should keep her sour grapes to herself?

[WrinklyBathToes]

I can't help but feel for Caster Semenya, poor lass has been subjected to all sorts of medical interventions and whispers. It's not actually her fault, it's a natural blip, why should she be subjected to all this bitching from the losers?

But she's not entirely female - she is intersex. She has male characteristics too! That's nothing like being a little bit pregnant.

I think the more logical comparison would be Oscar Pistorius who entered the 2012 Olympics (as distinct from the Paralympics) with his artificial legs. The public & other athletes were concerned that his blades would confer him an unfair advantage. In any event, he lost his semi so the scrutiny fell away, but I'd hazard that if he'd won, the rules would have changed out of his favour (murdering Reeva notwithstanding).

Rightly or wrongly, the Olympics is split into male and female, able and disabled. I have a lot of empathy for Sharpe feeling as she did - Semenya really is physically different in appearance to the other competitors.

Luna... presuming you are a woman - you too have male characteristics!

Even if you disregard culture, sterotypes, upbringing etc... we all have androgens...

We don't all have internal testes though

YANBU to feel sorry for Caster whose privacy has been invaded.

YABU to criticise Lynsey Sharp. It is totally unfair for Caster to be allowed to race with a testosterone level so much higher than other women when - if her competitors took testosterone to level the field - they would be banned. If testosterone conveys no significant advantage. let every women athlete take it.

I'd be totally pissed off if I were Sharp too.

If she'd taken enough testosterone to give her the same advantage the 3 athletes who won the medals in the 800m have in their systems naturally then she'd be banned.

OurBlanche
If this article is correct then conditions like PCOS were taken into account when the testosterone level was set. 10 nmol/L was 5SD above the level of testosterone found in athletes with PCOS at 2 world championships (4.5nmol/L). 99% of the female athletes were below 3.08nmol/L

sportsscientists.com/2016/05/hyperandrogenism-women-vs-women-vs-men-sport-qa-joanna-harper/

Yes, I have my opinion but I think it is very important to not use phrases like "the likes of Caster Semenya"

I believe it is not her fault and since 2009 I have been saying that she has been treated abominably. But, one cannot escape the fact that now the rules on testosterone levels have been relaxed, at the first Olympic 800m final, the top 3 places went to women with similar biological make up

I actually don't know about the other races/sports and why there hasn't been a similar hoo ha with them

It does smack of Caster being victimised. I am blaming the decision makers, not the individuals involved

And I really think Lynsey should not be vilified either. Totally unfair to catch her at such an off guard moment. The woman was crying her fucking eyes out at being beaten to medal places by 3 women she had no hope of competing with.

Semenya really is physically different in appearance to the other competitors. No one in their right mnds would argue against that.

What is under debate, and should be or we would be judging every book by its cover, is to what extent does it matter? And that is what, in athletics, the Court if Arbitration has asked for evidence of.

It has been less than 100 years since it was found that women naturally, essentially have testosterone, that there is not a single biological sex marker found exclusively in male bodies or female bodies.

Good grief there is most extrordinary smorgasbord of utter shit being posted on this thread.
The two that stand out - Black runners are better because of the slave trade? WTF? It has been consistently shown that people who originate from the Rift Valley have calf muscles which are slightly lower and longer, which gives them a much more energy efficient running style and allows them to be quicker and more efficient over long distances, hence their domination of endurance events.

What do Michael phelps and ussin bolt have that makes them physically different from other men?

Usian Bolt has been proven to have a very different muscle composition to average.
Most people have roughly 50:50 fast:slow twitch muscles fibres. Usain bolt has been shown to have at least 80% fast twitch muscle fibres, which give him explosive power and speed which could never be matched by someone with normal muscle composition.

How is that any different to Caster?

Exactly - I don't have internal testes. I am biologically female, I do not have a medical diagnosis of being intersex or hyperandrogenous. I have a womb and ovaries. I have never had my testosterone measured but would imagine it would be lower than Lynsey Sharp's as I'm not an Olympic athlete.

I don't know what the solution is to the issue of intersex athletes who have very high levels of testosterone and who have both male and female sex characteristics. They choose not to race against men, but they have an unfair advantage over the women. It's not an easy one to solve, and the Olympic Committee won't be able to keep everyone happy.

Chaz as I said earlier, it really isn't that simple.

It is that level that the Indian sprinter Dutee Chand challenged and won, the reason the Court of Arbitration suspended that limit, the reason Semenya was allowed to stop taking suppressants and still compete.

There needs to be more specific and focussed research on the athletic benefits of high/low levels of any androgen. Or all that is happening is that someone somewhere thinks something looks or sounds wrong and legislates against it!

Surely we are way beyond such simplistic thinking... in the 21st century?

IAAF - please don't give the IOC any power in this, they ar far too corrupt self important as it is

YABU. she ran against someone who is not female. That is not fair.

Totally agree with this. Imagine being a professional female athlete, but having no chance of winning in your sport/distance, because intersex athletes are competing against you and they will basically win every time because their bodies produce the same levels of testosterone as the average man. That would really, really suck. I thought Lynsey Sharp was very restrained the the circumstances.

It's not just her testosterone level though. She also has a male pelvis. That gives advantages to a runner.

spare how is it different you ask

Because currently competitive sports are divided on grounds of what sex you are. Not on your proportion of fast twitch fibres nor how you process lactic acid

If either of those latter examples ever become a way to differentiate which group you compete against, then perhaps you may have a point

I think the research is looking at that very point now. I agree it's not simple, the article highlights the case of a Spanish athlete banned for high testosterone who had androgen insensitivity so didn't receive a performance benefit.
However, if it is correct that there is a marked difference in CS performance when she is taking testosterone suppressants and when she isn't, it does suggest she is receiving a benefit.

OurBlanche - I completely agree with your very well informed and intelligent posts on this thread. It is a situation that needs proper thought and research, instead of knee jerk reactions. Until there is a definite ruling, supported by careful reasoning, the athletes are all in a very difficult situation. There is very little concrete science on this issue at present.

IAAF then - whoever makes the rules and laws governing international athletics.

This problem isn't going to go away, the IAAF need to sort it out pronto.

I actually went to bed really upset about this.

The top 3 athletes in the 800 metres women's final were clearly androgynous and it is unfair. I understand that it is also unfair to intersex athletes because their lives cannot be easy. This is one situation which should be very clearly binary with strict medical definitions of male and female. I can understand why Lynsey Sharp was upset. Damn right I can.

I am not confident we will ever get a ruling that is fair on everyone

Sometimes the minority have to take the hit. I am coming to the conclusion that this example is one of those times.

AF,
The suggestion is being made that she has taken the consious decision to run as a woman rather than man, because it gives her a better chance of winning races.
But she has been raised as a girl from the start of her life, and if press reports are to be believed, was unaware of her hormone issues until the opposition starting complaining against her during the completion calendar.

That is so extraordinarily different from sitting her down at 16 having not made the grade at men's racing and saying 'switch to women's races and see what happens'

So in my mind, that is someone finding out they have a quirk of genetics which gives a sporting advantage, akin to muscle composition or lung capacity.

Incidentally, I can't quite believe this hasn't come up on the thread yet, but the IOC made a fairly significant rule change this year to allow trans women, including pre-op, biological complete men who identify as women, to compete as women as long as they have been on hormone treatment for a year prior to the race.

If you want to be outraged about something, don't make it the girl who has been dealt a shitty, shitty hand at birth but is making the best of it
A man, who goes through a male puberty, with male muscles mass, bone density and physiology but then realises they can't win as a man so takes 12 months of hormones to get their Olympic medal as a woman - now that's taking the fucking piss...

their bodies produce the same levels of testosterone as the average man

Her levels have been usually quoted as 3 x the levels of a normal woman:

Normal levels are:
Male: 300 to 1,000 ng/dL
Female: 15 to 70 ng/dL

So even if she has 3 x the highrest levels... she, a world class athlete, has less testisterin than your average Joe!

She also has a male pelvis
Says who? That is conjecture...

1 in 20,000 people are born intersex... how many do you think end up in elite sport?

How do you think they feel when suddenyl old they aren't who they have always thought they were?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santhi_Soundarajan

It can only be repeated.. they are not cheating... there needs to be more science and more informed regulations in sport.

Ourblanche would you believe it to be acceptable for female athletes to inflate their testosterone levels to that of Semenya? If they began this programme of inflating testosterone from a young age, to provide increased lung capacity etc.