to think Lynsey Sharp should keep her sour grapes to herself?

[WrinklyBathToes]

I can't help but feel for Caster Semenya, poor lass has been subjected to all sorts of medical interventions and whispers. It's not actually her fault, it's a natural blip, why should she be subjected to all this bitching from the losers?

[2rebecca]

Her testosterone level is higher because she has testes, albeit internal ones due to some sort of problem as a foetus. There are a variety of intersax disorders that make a baby have labia and no penis but they have male chromosomes male pelvises and internal testes.
She isn't just a woman with a higher than normal level of testosterone. She's a man with no penis.
Some people think she is just making the best of things by using her body as it is to run as fast as she can. The trouble is that this is extremely unfair to normal women.
Do we want all the women's events to be won by people with a Y chromosomes in 20 years time?

[andintothefire]

I find it all very sad to be honest. I really feel for Sharp (and the other athletes who competed in the final and did not win a medal) but I also feel very sorry for Semenya and the other two medal winners who are constantly having their gender and right to compete in women's races questioned.

When we divide athletes between men and women, we obviously need a nuanced and sensitive way of determining gender for those purposes. It isn't as simple as, for example, weighing somebody in weight-divided medal events. The problem is that our understanding of how to define gender and the potential advantages given by levels of testosterone is still quite limited. The various bodies are still not sure how to tackle it in a fair, clear and respectful way. It does seem obvious that we need a clear cut off point that goes beyond a definition based on genitalia, for example, but nobody is quite sure where that cut off point should be.

While athletics bodies battle with the issues, it is inevitable that both Sharp and Semenya will feel aggrieved - the rules keep changing and very talented athletes are being kept in limbo. In the circumstances, I can't feel angry with any of them for how they react or deal with it all.

[ShatnersBassoon]

Sharp isn't a world class athlete

Well she certainly didn't get to the Olympics through Jim'll Fix It . What a stupid thing to say, of course she's one of the best in the world.

Caster's medical details aren't public knowledge, so anything I've read I've taken to be speculation. The internal testes etc aren't known to be fact are they?

[SonicSpotlight]

Biological Passport

[LunaLoveg00d]

There's also been a recent change in the acceptable levels of testosterone because of people like caster Semenya, and the other two women in the 800m medal race, saying they were being discriminated against.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/21/lynsey-sharp-criticises-obvious-hypoadrogenous-women-having-bein/

[RockyBird]

Athletes should be poor losers, IMO.

[EllaHen]

Well said OurBlanche.

[nokidshere]

Of course her medical details are public Knowledge - otherwise how would we and the other athletes know that she has high testosterone levels and that she was tested to make sure she was female

[OurBlanche]

AnyFucker she was, the IAAF insisted, but the Court of Arbitration suspended the monitoring of female athletes with higher than usual levels of testosterone until more focussed research could be provided. The physiology of testosterone isn't as simple as some would have it!

I also seem to have lost part of a sentence in my previous post: Sharp's studied Law (LLB), her dissertation was on the law about hyperandrogenism and sport.

[ShatnersBassoon]

Oh no, the testing details were made public, but I don't think it's been confirmed that she has internal testes, no ovaries and so on has it? Genuine question, I'd taken it to be speculation, not confirmed fact.

[2kids2dogsnosense]

Really difficult situation - I can remember something similar a few Olympiads ago with a very "butch" eastern bloc runner who really looked very masculine.

I suppose in some ways it's no different to having any genetic inheritance that makes you a good swimmer or shot putter or whatever. None of us can help the way we're made and to capitalise on what would otherwise be a disadvantage - well, good luck to her.

However, I can see why the others are upset - and if she has no ovaries etc but does have internal testicles, maybe she should compete against the men?

[nancy75]

Her full medical records are not public, we know she was tested and confirmed to be female I think the rest is mainly speculation

[ShatnersBassoon]

That's what I'd thought, nancy75.

[ChazsBrilliantAttitude]

I don't think anyone is a winner here. Sharp must be very frustrated and Semenya has had her biology and identity scrutinised publicly.

My personal view is that if we divide sport between men and women because the hormonal differences between then give one sex a physiological advantage then an intersex competitor with a level of testosterone usually only found in men should not compete against female athletes without lowering their testosterone levels.

[soloula]

The comparison with Phelps is null

But it's not really as Phelps is celebrated for being a 'freak of nature' whereas Caster is vilified. For example Phelps produces way less lactic acid than other swimmers so his recovery times are infinitely faster than his competitors. And I agree completely that Caster's physiological make up is different to other athletes because of her hyper androgenism but she is being singled out for her physical differences which set her apart from the lack whereas others are celebrated. That's what I've got the issue with.

The problem is really where do you start when trying to level the playing field. Countries who fund athletes better are at an advantage before the games even begin (like Team GB Cycling, the Chinese badminton players for example), black sprinters may have a genetic advantage over white sprinters and then at an individual level there are some like Phelps and Caster who have specific physical differences which may or may not confer an advantage. It's a conundrum. My issue is that while Caster may have some physical advantages due to her condition it's not fair that she's singled out.

[OurBlanche]

Shatner her medical records were leaked when she was just 18 and forced to take a sex test!

Since then much speculation has been take as gospel, often used by people who have little more than a passingunderstanding of hyperandrogenism and/or the effects of testosterone.

[WetPaint4]

I wouldn't want to run against her, it would be like running against a man. Bolt is one runner, Phelps is one swimmer and they don't cone along every year. Allowing Caster and others like her to dominate female sports will mean many normal - don't like to use that word really - women will have no chance of being successful in their field. It's definitely tricky but if as people suggest, the three medalists in the 800m are all intersex, there could be more to come and you could actually find regular women being the minority in years to come in their own categories. I do feel sorry for Caster having to be subject to all the investigations but she is very manly - she looks, sounds and acts like a man so the question was always going to be asked.

I think Lynsey did okay with her emotions running high and a mic shoved in her face. I don't know why people expect these women to feel okay being put at a serious disadvantage.

[pastizzi]

Yes 2kids, I have been wondering what makes her more of a woman than a man if she is intersex. She doesn't have female internal organs so is it simply that she was raised as a female?

In some ways I feel sorry for her, but she surely should accept her massive advantage. And how, if being intersex is so rare, do three intersex individuals end up taking the three medals in an Olympic final? Quite a coincidence.

And does anyone know if any intersex individuals choose to compete against men? Or is it another coincidence that they all opt for the women's races....

[OurBlanche]

a level of testosterone usually only found in men that is the issue.

There are a huge number of reasons why any woman can have extremely elevated testosterone levels: training response, hyperandrogenism, 10% of all women have elevated levels due to PCOS and there are a number of other congenital conditions that raise levels too.

[Rainbunny]

It's a terribly unfair situation to both Caster and the other female competitors, it's hard to see a solution that doesn't end up discriminating against someone in this.

I don't think her testosterone level is the main issue actually, another runner also has very high levels of testosterone and didn't even make the final. It's worth noting that Caster didn't break the world record either so there's at least one woman who who has run faster.

I personally believe the effects of testosterone on growth during puberty are more influential (this is just my opinion). Men are stronger and faster not only because of testosterone levels but because they have more red blood cells and bigger hearts and lungs. If Caster resembles a man more in these aspects then I can see why other female runners are frustrated.

[LunaLoveg00d]

My personal view is that if we divide sport between men and women because the hormonal differences between then give one sex a physiological advantage then an intersex competitor with a level of testosterone usually only found in men should not compete against female athletes without lowering their testosterone levels.

I agree with this. It does make a mockery of the "women's 800m" race or any other event when you've got competitors who biologically are not entirely female. The likes of Caster Semenya won't want to favour the male side of their biology because they won't win against men, so race against "normal" women who are horribly disadvantaged. It does seem that this is a problem with the 800m at the moment, more research is needed into the effect of these intersex conditions, testosterone and how it affects the different events.

[OurBlanche]

everydayfeminism.com/2016/08/olympics-intersex-athletes/

Try this for a slightly different view.

[LunaLoveg00d]

there's at least one woman who who has run faster.

That would be Jamila Kratochvilova - Czech athlete of the early 80s who everyone and their dog believes was heavily involved in state sponsored doping.

[OurBlanche]

the likes of Caster Semenya and not entirely female ye gods!

Can I please be just a little bit black, or a tad pregnant? Go on, let me....

[LunaLoveg00d]

Or Marita Koch, an East German who was also involved in doping. Allegedly.