To think that if more people that get a degree it devalues it

[Ohbehave1]

Congrats to all those whose DC's have got the grades tongs to uni.

I was wondering having just seen that record numbers have got university places if too the number of people now attending uni and getting good grades devalue them in some way. It used to be that some people went, some didn't and if you had a degree it gave you an advantage in the work market. Now it doesn't seem to.

AIBU to think that a university education isn't worth what it used to be.

CD should read CS = Computer Science.

Apologies, autocorrect strikes again.

STEM degrees are the backbone of R&D and employability, but other degrees are essential to cultural and scientific progress - geology, archaeology, PPE, etc etc.

I must have missed the bit when Geology stopped being a science?

Hmm. I don't think my BA did much for me, but without it I'd never have got on to the MA course I did years later (which I sweated blood to complete and am bloody proud of, and without it I wouldn't have the job I do now as the MA also gave professional status). The initial degree very probably is not the high value, door opening thing it was in the past- but just having it really boosts your chances of afterwards achieving something that is valued and does open some doors.

I don't have much to say on whether it devalues it or not, but I find it interesting that the statistic being thrown around is "record numbers of students get in to university" but how many will stay? How many will thrive and pass? How many will gain mental health problems or serious debt from the experience?

Ideally, everyone would be as educated as they possibly could be. Whether that stops at GCSE or PhD, we should support the youth to get their education for the benefit of themselves and society. Nobody should cut their studies short because it's "time to get a job", their parents/the gov can't afford to support them financially or their mental health is at risk. If a student can get into university, I think that's amazing - if they can thrive and pass and enjoy it, that's even better.

Sutton trust report here:

www.suttontrust.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Earnings-by-Degrees-REPORT.pdf

Subjects with best salaries include computer science. Subjects with worst salaries include history. Engineering and tech disciplines pay on average £8,800 more than the worst paying disciplines, A degree from one of the most selective thirteen universities will get you 4,400 more than one from a post 92 university.

Can I address some of the things that myprivateidaho| said:

"I know for example that it's fairly rare for state school kids to be able to study maths at Cambridge"

I found the 2014 Cambridge university admissions statistics. In 2014 there were 114 State school acceptances and 32 Independent acceptances to read maths.

Maths is an odd one - there are far more offers for maths as these will include STEP exams, which are much harder than a-levels. For most other subjects if you get an offer at interview you will almost certainly get your place (assuming most people applying to Cambridge will be in course for A*'s). On the positive side, a state school candidate who has not had "interview coaching" will be more likely to get an offer in maths, but very few state schools have teachers who can support students in STEP.

"most state schools just don't teach enough maths for them to do the course well and many only have provision for students to do one maths a-level"

The Further Maths support network was set up to help all schools offer at least AS Further maths. However, Independent schools still have some massive advantages. They tend to teach the A-level maths syllabus in one year, then the further maths syllabus in the next whereas in state schools you tend to have A-level lessons with one class and then some extra lessons on top for some further maths modules - this tends to mean that they end up doing Decision Maths which is of no use at all for Cambridge - really you need as much Pure and Mechanics as you can (Statistics is somewhat useful, but not as much as the others). Having a separate group who are the further mathematicians means that they can race through the easier modules (C1/C2 etc) and spend more time on the harder ones - independent students are also more likely to do both FP2 and FP3.

IMO, three A-levels in maths is not as useful as 2 good ones (with lots of Pure and Mechanics) with further reading on top.

Then there is STEP. Most kids who want to study maths at cambridge have found maths easy (at GCSE etc). Then they sit down and are faced with a paper (usually 2) where they don't know what to do - most STEP questions require some thought and ingenuity, and candidates have to do 6 questions in 3 hours (rather than the 9/10 in 1.5 hours for a maths module). STEP questions also link lots of different areas together. It is very important that candidates get used to "being stuck" a long time before they sit the exams!

There is some stuff out there for prospective maths students, which can be found at maths.org/step/ . They are designed to try and increase students confidence with this sort of question, and there is a forum where they can ask for help. The assignments are pretty good, and there is a link to Siklos's book (freely available as a pdf).

I graduated 3 years ago with a 1:1 in linguistics from a "proper" University (whatever that is..)

I got a job that required a degree (ANY degree subject, but classification had to be above a 2:1) about 3 months after I graduated. I then worked my backside off and have had 3 promotions in 3 years and now I'm in a managerial role in charge of a team of 8. You catagorically do not need a masters or a PhD to get a managerial role in an office .

Your degree is your "foot in the door", your progression after that depends on your attitude and performance in the role UNLESS you're in a specialist industry that's in line with your study subject, like ecology or the sciences. If you're in a bog standard office job your masters really wont matter.

I haven't used my degree at all, but my employer wanted proof that applicants are able to learn and study independently, a good degree demonstrates this. It also demonstrates dedication, organisation, social skills, independence etc etc etc.... does the fact that more people get degrees make them any less difficult to achieve? No. No it doesn't and it certainly doesn't "devalue" all the skills you gain from completing one, hence why employers ask for one!

You catagorically do not need a masters or a PhD to get a managerial role in an office.

You categorically do need a masters or PhD to do get an entry level job in a technically demanding role in my field of work.

And an MBA can be a differentiator when it comes to more senior management roles (as DH has found). It might not on its own get you the job, but given two equally good candidates, one with an MBA and one without, the MBA will often swing it.

As I mentioned, if you are in a specialist industry it's a bit different...

I'm currently in charge of promotions for my team, I'll promote if your work in the role deserves it. To be honest I couldn't tell you who on my team has a degree higher than a BA/BSC, beyond getting you a job in the first place it doesn't really matter in none specialist industries.

When I said that you needed a doctorate or at least a Master's for a management role, I meant for fast-streamed entry. Of course you can get promoted into a management role without one. It's called 'experience'.

All this thread has done - in minute detail - is demonstrate that "education" in the UK is a big-business industry and run for the benefit of the companies involved shareholders rather than the customer.

Or is that too cynical ?

We recently advertised a press officer role, which we subsequently gave to the non graduate.

Most interviewees were English graduates from top universities. We were shocked by their poor level of English, in terms of spelling, punctuation and grammar - yet they had first class degrees in English!

The non graduate in the group had more life experience, in terms of work history and bags more get up and go. We took her on.

I know that many employers do require a degree and in many cases it's a necessity for that role.

I would never put a Dr or Masters straight into mgt role without any man management experience and thats speaking as an experienced senior level manager with a Masters

Probably explains why most mgt can't manage at all

To answer the OP, in general a degree isn't worth what it was.
To quote from Gilbert & Sullivan, "When everybody's somebody, then no-one's anybody"

(I started off writing an essay but have deleted most of it before posting!)

I agree with previous poster that standards have gone down, though I'm not sure this is because its easier to get into a uni than it used to be.

I did a science degree 20 years ago as a mature student, and I was accepted without any A levels (or equivalent). This is a RG uni, so not a soft option. I was surprised to see that my GCE O levels from 20 years earlier were more than adequate for the course I was doing - and in some aspects what I remembered from my schooldays was better than many of my fellow students with good A level grades.

What all this overlooks though, is that uni isn't just for in-depth learning. It also teaches young people independence and a whole list of other useful practical & social skills. Whether this is justified in terms of the cost though....

I just wish uni wasn't seen as the inevitable step after age 18.

Its partly down to successive govts pushing further education as a way to massage the figures for youth unemployment. And partly because of the marginal costs meaning unis can make a lot of money out of additional student numbers once they have enough students to cover the basic costs.

I've just completed a History degree at an RG uni... for fun. With 4dc we couldn't afford childcare for me to work yet, I 'earned' more in loans/grants/bursaries than I would working and paying for childcare and I don't expect I'll pay it back. Love doing my degree, learning just for the joy of learning. I was surprised at how many accountants/engineers/Law converters my course seemed to produce though, they seemed to be the three main aims of my cohort (all a decade younger than me obvs )

About to start an MA in history at the same institution... for fun.