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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that if more people that get a degree it devalues it

90 replies

Ohbehave1 · 18/08/2016 08:35

Congrats to all those whose DC's have got the grades tongs to uni.

I was wondering having just seen that record numbers have got university places if too the number of people now attending uni and getting good grades devalue them in some way. It used to be that some people went, some didn't and if you had a degree it gave you an advantage in the work market. Now it doesn't seem to.

AIBU to think that a university education isn't worth what it used to be.

OP posts:
LurkingHusband · 18/08/2016 11:47

Just remember that 50% of people are below average intelligence ...

Fuckingmoles · 18/08/2016 11:50

Could equally be that the population is better educated at school

Anecdotally I don't think this is necessarily true. An acquaintance who is an Economics Professor says that they are having to spend the first year of uni bringing students' maths up to scratch apparently this was not the case when he first started.

I spent yesterday with someone who is an external advisor for access arrangments who was expressing her shock at the number of GCSE aged pupils who were working at a low primary school level in English and Maths.

GoudyStout · 18/08/2016 12:36

When I left uni in the 1980s entry level requirements for a technical job in my sphere was generally a good BSc (with a handful of companies requiring an MSc or PhD), returning to work in the 2000s that had changed to an MSc with PhD preferred.

zeezeek · 18/08/2016 12:49

I have taught undergraduates at an RG Uni for over a decade and there is definitely a difference in the quality of the student between then and now, even more since I was an undergraduate in the late 80's. I would definitely agree that a degree now is worth less than a degree then. We worked harder, were more independent thinkers, didn't expect to go into a lecture and have notes already produced for us and, more importantly, we had achieved a higher standard of education. Some of the things that I am having to cover now I had covered when doing my A-levels.

The standard of education has dropped in this country. That is the reason why more and more students are getting the high grades and getting into Universities. However, there are still exceptionally bright people out there who would have been able to achieve more - if only they were stretched.

LurkingHusband · 18/08/2016 13:32

cui bono ?

It's hard to avoid speculating that it suits the powers that be to have a generally deskilled and ill-informed and educated population. Especially if they subscribe to the belief that such a population is easier to manipulate (academics have an irritating tendency to see through dodgy dossiers and fabricated figures).

You then just import the skills and brains you need from outside the UK. Foreigners being easier to manipulate (because any signs of trouble and you take their visa away).

I'm not saying this is the case. But if it isn't it becomes harder to explain the woeful state of indigenous STEM skills and the structure of the UK education industry.

sashh · 18/08/2016 13:32

I spent yesterday with someone who is an external advisor for access arrangments who was expressing her shock at the number of GCSE aged pupils who were working at a low primary school level in English and Maths.

But years ago they would not have been entered for an exam at all.

I'm old so I did O Levels, only the 'top 20%' did O Levels and then the next 20-30% did CSE, 50% of school leavers never sat an exam.

In addition your grade did not depend on just what you produced in the exam but how others in your cohort did too.

The standard of education has dropped in this country. That is the reason why more and more students are getting the high grades and getting into Universities.

For many many children it has improved, the problem is you cannot differentiate at the top end because as long as the students get the right answers then they get the grade.

I applied for a job last year, they asked for a minimum of GCSE grade A in maths and English, but my grades B and C at O Level were apparently 'equivalent'.

InformalRoman · 18/08/2016 14:51

A study by Durham Uni (reported in the Torygraph in 2008) suggested that on average A levels taken in the 1980s would (in 2008) be marked two grades higher, although students hadn't got any brighter - a mixture of better exam prep, improved teaching and grade inflation. Maths marks improved by 3.5 grades.

I'm feeling better about my ABC grades now. DS has been straight As for all his exams and thinks I'm a bit thick.

mollie123 · 18/08/2016 15:19

Back in the 1960s - probably only 10-15% went to university.
'O' levels - the norm was to take 8 and pass all of them to get to go on to A Levels.
'A' levels - A's (none of this A*) were exceptional, B's and C's would get you to University. Most of us did 3 but occasionally 4 A levels.
University - I was fortunate to get into Bath (one of the new universities in the late 60s) where graduating with a 2:1 was the norm- only one person on my course got a 1st!
Joined the civil service where there was a distinct ordering of grade around education level
EO or SO - degree level from the off in the 1970s.
My degree was not relevant (Sociology and Psychology Blush) but to get into IT/Computing any subject was fine as logical/analytical thinking was the criteria not Maths or computer science.

I do not believe young people are more 'intelligent' now, but they do have more opportunities and encouragement to learn so in that sense they are better 'educated'.

VladmirsPoutine · 18/08/2016 15:27

I have about 4 degrees and tbh it hasn't propelled me into the echelons of the working world. I'd have been better off saving all that money and putting it towards the deposit for my house,

LurkingHusband · 18/08/2016 15:27

I do not believe young people are more 'intelligent' now,

They just know different stuff. Like our forebears.

Anyway, what is "intelligence" ? Certainly not something that can be directly measured so we have to use proxies for it.

badtime · 18/08/2016 15:45

Luna, I don't think American Studies is the same type of course as Sports Management. When I was at university, the American Studies students did exactly the same courses as the History, Politics and Literature students, but they just had less choice (and a year abroad).

noblegiraffe · 18/08/2016 15:45

Maths marks improved by 3.5 grades.

Maths A-level was deliberately made easier about 10 years ago in order to get more people to take it.

LurkingHusband · 18/08/2016 15:47

Maths A-level was deliberately made easier about 10 years ago

I noticed differential calculus disappeared from GCSE, along with trigonometry and logarithms Sad. Certainly were a fundamental part of my O levels.

AnnaMarlowe · 18/08/2016 15:49

Education is never wasted. It is valuable in itself.

noblegiraffe · 18/08/2016 15:52

Trig is still on maths GCSE, in fact it is now on the foundation paper as well as higher. I don't think I did calculus or logs at GCSE in the mid nineties so not sure that was ever on!

myownprivateidaho · 18/08/2016 15:54

With respect fuckingmoles and zeezeek, I'm aware that uni lecturers are fond of saying that their students are thicker than ever. That's not really what I was after. In particular, I don't think it's possible to get a good sense of any shift from comparing one's own experience as a student with one's own experience as a lecturer. I'm wondering if anyone has actually done any research into the subject.

Maths superficially seems like a good comparison, but again it's very hard to say that students are getting worse there.

I know for example that it's fairly rare for state school kids to be able to study maths at Cambridge unless they are a bona fide genius - most state schools just don't teach enough maths for them to do the course well and many only have provision for students to do one maths a-level, whereas private schools will let their kids do two or three maths a-levels (maths, further maths and further further maths), often on top of other subjects. Thus, privately educated people who are good at maths end up being better at maths than state educated people who are good at maths, simply because they do a lot more of it.

So an economics professor noticing that students generally have worse maths these days may be noticing this due to a general decline in maths teaching. But they could also be noticing this due to a general improvement in teaching in state schools, which is enabling more and more state educated students to get the grades necessary to do economics at a RG university. However, since these state educated students will mostly only have one maths a-level, they may well have a lower level of maths than the privately educated students who previously dominated the course. That doesn't, of course, mean that they are worse than those students, just that they haven't had the same opportunities.

Thus, economics students getting worse at maths could just as easily be a sign of the raising of standards than the lowering of them. This is why anecdotal evidence isn't helpful.

nonamehere · 18/08/2016 16:31

myown, what do you mean by further further maths? As far as I'm aware there are only 2 maths A levels - maths and further maths, although the constituent modules within them can vary according to the student's (or more likely the school's) choice.

sashh · 18/08/2016 16:33

I don't think I did calculus or logs at GCSE in the mid nineties so not sure that was ever on!

They were on my O Level syllabus but only logs were on the one at my brother's school. I think there was a wider range.

myownprivateidaho · 18/08/2016 16:39

nonamehere - all of the maths a-levels are just formed from picking modules from a pool (though there are compulsory modules for the first maths a-level). So with a-level maths you do 6 modules. For further maths you do another 6. You can round it all off with an as-level in further further maths by adding another three -- now I think of it not sure if there are actually enough for another a-level. But you can definitely just do as many of the modules as your school has provision to teach.

myownprivateidaho · 18/08/2016 16:42

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_level_mathematics - here we go. It's called additional further mathematics, not further further maths and you can do a full a-level in it after all!

PanGalaticGargleBlaster · 18/08/2016 16:47

I think it is certain institutions that somehow get away with being called universities devalue the worth of a degree by allowing students with piss poor A Level grades to enroll on crap non academic courses that offer zero vocational benefits and are laughed at by most employers for the shit that they are.

zeezeek · 18/08/2016 16:52

I don't actually think that individual students are thicker - but as it has become less challenging to get into Uni, as a whole, I would say that the student body is becoming progressively less intelligent than it was 20-25 years ago.

It ,at be anecdotal evidence, but the proof of this dumbing down can be found if we compare exam papers from the 80's and 90's with the exam papers of today.

zeezeek · 18/08/2016 16:52

I don't actually think that individual students are thicker - but as it has become less challenging to get into Uni, as a whole, I would say that the student body is becoming progressively less intelligent than it was 20-25 years ago.

It ,at be anecdotal evidence, but the proof of this dumbing down can be found if we compare exam papers from the 80's and 90's with the exam papers of today.

borntobequiet · 18/08/2016 16:59

There was a report this morning on the Today programme saying that the pay differential between graduates and non graduates has remained more or less the same over the last 20 years or so despite the much greater number of graduates in recent years. The explanation was that work structures have changed, creating more graduate level jobs. However, it was not clear whether the situation would stay the same if the numbers of graduates continued to rise.

DelicatePreciousThing1 · 18/08/2016 17:00

@OP
You are spot on. Degrees have been hugely devalued because currently everyone and her/his dog is trying to get to "yooni". Of course, there are still people starting nowadays who would have also got there on true merit 10 or whatever years ago, but there are also far too many attending now who would not have made the grade in the past.
My OH is a university lecturer and in the relatively short time he has been working, he has noticed a definite overall drop in standards and candidate quality.

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