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AIBU?

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Original poster

Is it too early to chat about billionaires hoarding land and avoiding paying inheritance tax?

168 replies

feellikeahugefailure · 10/08/2016 12:30

I know it involves a death and that's very sad for the family, but irrespective of that I do think inherited unearned assets is huge reason for inequality. The UK ranks badly for equality.

OP posts:
MaliceInWonderland78 · 10/08/2016 13:26

I'd scrap IHT altogether (hear me out).

That would stop baby boomers and the like whinging that their (largely unearned) wealth is being taxed. What we should do, in my opinion, is tax the recipient (at their marginal rate). The income tax system already has a degree of progressiveness built into it.

I say this as someone who is likely to be the beneficiary of a couple of inheritances. My children would, by virtue of the compounding nature of things, be in line for even more.

My only objection to IHT is that I don't think the government spends our money wisely.

rubybleu · 10/08/2016 13:36

The man in question owns a company that employs thousands of employees. Good quality jobs as well, not minimum wage zero hour contracts.

Wouldn't it be a marvellous idea to hand it over to the Government to do a cack-handed job of attempting to sell it, putting employees livelihoods at risk, if all assets were taxed at 100%?

Personally I think inheritance tax is ridiculous - in the case of real estate you are taxed 4 times: on earnings used to buy the asset; on stamp duty; on VAT to maintain the property over its life and on death.

Original poster
feellikeahugefailure · 10/08/2016 13:42

Personally I think inheritance tax is ridiculous - in the case of real estate you are taxed 4 times: on earnings used to buy the asset; on stamp duty; on VAT to maintain the property over its life and on death.

Not always true, espeically if your ancestors were related to William the Conqueror.

Good on the DoW. It's the least he could do though, surely? I mean, as a proportion of his capital or income, isn't it the same as a poor person who puts money in the charity box for a good cause, or gives a needy friend or relative a tenner they will actually miss? Neither of which have any favourable tax implications.

Exactly. His expensive PR is in overdrive to make sure the main message given out is what a nice guy he was. Irrelevant of that doesn't mean that inherited inequality is good.

Wouldn't it be a marvellous idea to hand it over to the Government to do a cack-handed job

Are you taking the Bono stance that its best not to pay any tax as people themselves are better at spending it rather than governments?

OP posts:
caroldecker · 10/08/2016 13:53

I have no idea what his assets are. There are considerations if the main asset is a business because inheritance tax could force a sale/break-up which is not good for the economy.
There are reasons certain assets are IHT free.

CelticPromise · 10/08/2016 14:11

I'm with intothefire. Tax is on transactions, not money itself, so the 'it's been taxed before ' argument doesn't hold water. I find it interesting that many people who are vehemently against it IHT are against people getting something for nothing in other circumstances. I have been extremely fortunate to grow up in a family that is relatively financially secure and I have benefited from that throughout my life. There is no reason I should be entitled to any further benefit from it (not that my family would get anywhere near the IHT threshold, which is well out of reach of the vast majority of households).

derxa · 10/08/2016 14:16

feellikeahugefailure I'm sure you'll be happy not to inherit anything nor to pass anything on to your children.

2016Blyton · 10/08/2016 14:27

Like many I would like IHT abolished entirely. Also it doesn't matter if there are differences between people - some richer and some poorer. It is not important to personal happiness.

I would imagine with the Duke they will have the assets in trust for the family estate so IHT may well not be due thankfully.

CathFromCooberPedy · 10/08/2016 14:45

Really Celtic Confused so money earned isn't taxed? Because contrary to some people's beliefs, not all money is just given to people. In my dp case it really is earned money that they have already paid tax on.

Hirosleaftunnel · 10/08/2016 14:57

Girl at work knows the heir, she says he is a lovely guy. He didn't ask for this and neither did his dad. His freedom and life as he knows it is over at 25. Not to mention losing his beloved dad. Sad

exLtEveDallas · 10/08/2016 15:01

The DoW was a genuinely lovely funny man who is a great loss to his family, his friends, his employees and the Armed Forces. Yes, it's too soon.

LurkingHusband · 10/08/2016 15:02

I have no idea what his assets are.

The problem is neither do HMRC.

JaniceBattersby · 10/08/2016 15:03

There are most definitely people here who personally know the DoW.

I'm not a fan of the aristocracy or the monarchy, but as far as the toffs go, he was a good guy. His children are nice too.

While there is a need for threads like this, this is not the right time.

I hope he rests in peace.

2016Blyton · 10/08/2016 15:07

HMRC will know all they are legally obliged to nkow. The DoW is a compliant, tax paying citizen. If the state wants no one to earn much they can reintroduce the 99% upper rate of income tax we had in the 1970s - I remember it well. It didn't work then and it won't work now.

They are a lovely family - we have a very minor connection to them - and I am sorry the children have lost their father so early.

He also took the right decision to send them to day private schools which was my parents' choice too. It is much better for most children than boarding school is.

ginghamstarfish · 10/08/2016 15:17

Why not talk about fat rich bastard Philip Green instead?

andintothefire · 10/08/2016 15:17

It's a bit of a shame the thread was tied to the DoW - I think it raises interesting general issues for debate but personally I am not keen to speculate about any particular family's affairs, particularly at what is obviously a very sad time for them. Having said that, I think almost all the responses engaging with the thread have been about IHT generally and not in relation to the DoW or his heir.

fluffychicken · 10/08/2016 15:22

Yup. Totally unfair and nobody seems to be bothered. How can the government claim we live in a meritocracy when most wealth seems to be based on stealing land and making peasants pay for the privilege of living on it and it is still going on to this day in the form of landlords and tenants. So many people are paying so much of their earned income to lazy so and so's who just happened to be born at the right time and have hoarded property (and the poor tenants probably pay more PAYE tax than most rich landlords).

StillDrSethHazlittMD · 10/08/2016 15:29

You know, there really aren't that number of landloards that I would clash as rich. On paper, because they own three properties, possibly, but only when they sell. And many landlords I know own really quite small properties, that were very run down at a time when property prices were comparatively low in the 70s or early ages and did them up. Or, they inherited a property when their parents died and opted to rent it rather than flog it. How are these people "stealing land"?

The sort of uber-rich landlords that people speak about are comparatively few and far between - most normal landlords only own one or maybe two properties in addition to their own. Most politicians are wealthier than most landlords!

CelticPromise · 10/08/2016 15:40

Yes Cath the payment from the employer to the employee is taxed. If you spend it on a house you then pay stamp duty, if you spend it on cake you pay VAT, etc etc . Money isn't labelled as ' previously taxed ' and therefore exempt.

CelticPromise · 10/08/2016 16:23

IHT is fairer when you think about it, it's not like the person the money is paid to earned it. Compare with paying your earnings to a cleaner or gardener, they have to pay tax.

TeaPleaseLouise · 10/08/2016 16:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SelfLoadingFreight · 10/08/2016 17:16

He has given £350 million to the new DMRC that will replace Headley Court. He was a wise steward of the estate he ran & nobody from the armed forces who ever dealt with him has anything but good to say about him.
The OP's name is well chosen. Take your politics of envy & ram them.

davos · 10/08/2016 17:59

I have been extremely fortunate to grow up in a family that is relatively financially secure and I have benefited from that throughout my life.

Surely if you think inheritance is unfair, you also think that benefiting from your parents financial security is also unfair?

And that's the issue. Everyone talking about how unfair it is. Birth is unfair. You can be born into a rich or poor family. Children from rich families always will have advantages.

Unless we become a communist state (and probably not even then) some will have more than others.

andintothefire · 10/08/2016 18:10

davos - for me it is not about the envy or unfairness per se. It is about designing a tax system that is as fair as possible, given that as a country we need to pay taxes. I just think that there is something wrong when people who earn their money pay so much in tax (at an effective marginal rate of 65% for some people) and others simply inherit money that has generally not been earned through working and is only available to be inherited as a result of property price increases at a time when those very increases mean there is a housing crisis for many people. There are no other investments or windfalls that are often completely untaxed to such an extent.

Nobody likes paying tax, but personally I would rather incentivise people to earn. I think a fairer tax system would involve a tax on whatever inheritance is received, in light of our taxes on income kicking in at a very low level of annual earnings.

OurBlanche · 10/08/2016 18:15

So... you want to live in a socialis tstate? OK... go and find one that you think has worked... is fair, has a better standards of living than you currently enjoy... is somewhere you would like to live, to bring up your kids!

Beware the obvious ones like China and Russia, Afghanistan, Cambodia, North Korea.

Have a care what you wish for!

2016Blyton · 10/08/2016 18:17

andinto, but those who inherit money pay tax on their investments. What is the difference except that those who earn quite a bit get no personal income tax allowance at all?

Life is unfair and owning a lot of land doesn't protect you from heart attacks.

Plenty of the rich invest badly and lose it all. The Grosvenors have been wise and good for them for being so.