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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think dh is winding me up when he says some people on benefits are getting £500 a week?

640 replies

angelos02 · 07/08/2016 16:35

I'm pretty sure he's talking bullocks? Otherwise why the fuck would anyone do a minimum wage job?

OP posts:
BillSykesDog · 10/08/2016 07:38

Soover Grin

smallfox2002 · 10/08/2016 07:55

Thatcher put far more people on to sickness benefit to massage the figures than Labour did, in fact all Labur did was keep the people there that had been put there by Thatcher. Why would Labour need to do so in a time of a growing economy? In

"And as for wage stagnation, yes, the wages I referred to were the wages of the lowest paid - the working class."

Ah so the working class are only the lowest paid? As was said only the bottom 5% saw their wages effected by immigration, everyone else's increased, even then the bottom 5 % saw some increases when the average wage rose by more than 1.5%.

Extreme left wing? Pah, I'm hardly such, but then when you're further right than Atilla the Hun everyone is going to seem to be extreme left wing.

PageStillNotFound404 · 10/08/2016 08:18

As soon as people start arguing over which political party is worse / least efficient / historically responsible yadda yadda, we lose sight of the real impact that successive policies have had, and continue to have, on real people.

If you're facing loss of your independence because your disability benefits are being stripped away; if you're watching your disabled child face an uncertain future; if you're choosing between paying your rent or feeding your family; if you're cleaning the black mould off the walls again because you can't afford to heat your flat; if you're staring homelessness in the face because you were found fit for work 12 months ago by a civil servant with no medical training so but your condition hasn't miraculously disappeared and the employers willing to support your medical needs don't exist...then it doesn't really matter if the people making the policy decisions are wearing red ties or blue ones.

Some people fiddle the system. Of course they do. No one disputes that. But they are not representative of the vast majority, no matter how hard some of the TV channels and mainstream press try to persuade you otherwise by the insidious drip-drip-drip of stories showing the extreme cases. The answer to the problem of benefit cheats is to identify and sanction the benefit cheats. Cracking their tiny nut is not worth the giant sledgehammer being wielded against those who aren't cheating.

smallfox2002 · 10/08/2016 08:43

Its interesting that benefit/tax credit fraud is thought to be less than 1% of the entire benefit bill, about £1.6 billion combined. Its not insignificant, but its far less than people actually think.

This means that the vast majority of people are getting benefits deservedly, and life on benefits is not the easy street it is painted out to be.

Benefits, like other factors, have been over hyped as a cost to the country, as a % of government spending, the cost of WTC, CTC, and unemployment benefit works out at about 4.3 %.

It takes far too much attention, but the feckless poor myth is an easy way to distract people from other things.

smallfox2002 · 10/08/2016 09:25

In fact all benefits, excluding pensions and pensions credit. So Child, housing, all tax credits, and disability make up just over 14% of all public spending.

BillSykesDog · 10/08/2016 16:39

14% of public spending is a massive amount. And that's post reform so probably is a reasonable amount, but the figures before were eye watering.

404, personally I haven't commented on disability benefits because I simply don't know enough about it to comment so I seperate that off from any comments I do make about benefits.

But that aside, under Labour, the feeling most low wages and working class people I knew was that they were the ones watching the mould form on their walls or not hearing their homes or skipping meals and also working extremely hard just to live a poverty lifestyle.

I know a lot of people who felt very betrayed because they'd believed working hard, taking a job, sorting your own housing and etc was the moral thing to do and would be rewarded especially as they paid towards a welfare state to help other citizens in need. And a lot of bitterness created when they realised that wasn't the case.

I think there is a ticking time bomb in this country of people who will always have worked but never had chance to access either social housing or a home they own themselves. Or save, or build up a pension, yet have paid out to support other people. I think when they reach retirement age the shit is really going to hit the fan.

Just5minswithDacre · 10/08/2016 17:11

I think there is a ticking time bomb in this country of people who will always have worked but never had chance to access either social housing or a home they own themselves. Or save, or build up a pension, yet have paid out to support other people. I think when they reach retirement age the shit is really going to hit the fan.

Which proves that something has gone very awry in terms of decent basic living for all and the state should intervene more.

SheDoneAlreadyDoneHadHerses · 10/08/2016 17:30

I think that, until you've had to live it, you can't really make an informed decision.

I was made redundant about 2 months ago and have gone from a decent wage (lower than national average but still good for my Northern town) to £165 a week JSA, CTC, council tax support, and CB. I don't get any help towards my mortgage, bills, etc, and have to run 2 lives off that. I'm currently looking for work and am topping up using my redundancy money. I've 2 months left before I end up going into my overdraft, and another month after that, that'll be exhausted.

I was of the opinion that benefit "scroungers" were living the life of Riley. It's depressing, demeaning, and I'm trying my pigging damnedest to get out of the situation.

practy · 10/08/2016 17:36

People renting get much more help than people with a mortgage.

BillSykesDog · 10/08/2016 17:58

Which proves that something has gone very awry in terms of decent basic living for all and the state should intervene more.

Really? The state should prop up people's incomes more so that people like Philip Green can underpay them enough to free up the cash for a third yacht?

Or we could just look at ways people could be paid decent wages to start off with rather than depending on an unecessary and expensive carousel.

But then, of course, you have to start going into the k-hole of left wingers supporters defending huge companies paying low wages which is hugely depressing.

In reality tax credits go straight into the pockets of the Philip Green's of this world, not really to the needy.

Just5minswithDacre · 10/08/2016 18:04

Why do you assume that by 'intervene', I mean 'cash'?

Just5minswithDacre · 10/08/2016 18:05

Intervention in the runaway housing market and -yes - via a big NMW hike (and better policing of illegal working) are long overdue.

BillSykesDog · 10/08/2016 18:09

Herses, that's another big problem with the welfare system. 16.5 million adults have no savings. Most people would be on the breadline after 29 days, the average for families is 14 days.

People labour under the misapprehension that if they are made redundant the welfare state will be there for them. It won't. It wasn't under Labour and isn't now. It's difficult to get into. Once you get in and you're claiming then it can be very good, but they're not keen on letting you in, in the first place.

It's yet another area where the 'undeserving' poor have often prospered, especially under Labour. Those who are in and claim long term do well. Those who have genuinely fallen on temporary hard times and need a little helping hand are turned away with nothing.

BillSykesDog · 10/08/2016 18:10

Why do you assume that by 'intervene', I mean 'cash'?

Because this thread is about cash benefits payouts. It appears we are in agreement though.

Just5minswithDacre · 10/08/2016 18:14

I just get confused that the recipients of the existing, inadequate, not-good-enough cash interventions are the ones in the receiving end of the hate.

practy · 10/08/2016 18:31

People with mortgages should get their interest paid when unemployed, so they don't lose their house. Up to a limit obviously. But your average person should not be made homeless because of this.

BillSykesDog · 10/08/2016 18:40

I'm not directing hate towards current receipients TBH. Although I do support lots of the reforms.

I'm talking about the historic situation under Blair and Brown and saying I thought it was pretty appalling and don't want to go back to that. I also think that the left wing tendency to answer every question by throwing handouts at it is simplistic and often does more harm than good.

Lurkedforever1 · 10/08/2016 21:02

bill it's an absolute myth that the genuine claimants are kept out, while others work the system. So many seem to think benefits are high, and then when they, or people they respect end up claiming the reality that it's actually shit suddenly hits. But instead of realising their former opinion was infact wrong, they buy into the idea there is some other secret system, reserved especially for the 'undeserving'.

The only possible advantage between claimants is social housing, if it is deemed suitable for your needs. And that's only cos it usually meets the lha limit. If you're in private, even an ex la home, you'd almost always need to make up the shortfall.

Just5minswithDacre · 10/08/2016 21:07

Apologies if I confused or conflated posts Bill.

We really need to move away from the narrative of "why should I pay for something that only they get?". It's the politics of whining. And it makes no sense. We all pay for things we don't use and for good reason.

Moving on to a more positive public debate about what is needed would result in more lobbying and more progress.

smallfox2002 · 10/08/2016 22:03

"It's yet another area where the 'undeserving' poor have often prospered, especially under Labour."

Would this be like the undeserving rich who have had tax cuts under the Tories?

"Those who are in and claim long term do well. Those who have genuinely fallen on temporary hard times and need a little helping hand are turned away with nothing."

I don't know anyone who has been on benefits "long term" who is doing well. They tend to lead fairly precarious lives, benefits are changed because you're box room is judged to be a spare room, or for an unforeseen infringement of new rules, if you are ill you can be judged healthy enough to work by someone who is not a doctor ( look at how many people have died of their illnesses after being judged fit to work!), or the rules can be changed so that you are no longer deemed able to qualify but aren't able to make up the lost income somewhere else. It isn't some life of Riley that you paint it out to be.

The benefits "kings and queens" are as rare as the little old lady living in Notting Hill/Primrose Hill who was trotted out every time the mansion tax was mentioned.

We need a more progressive system where short term gains are not rewarded so highly, effectively we need to move away from the most important stakeholders of firms being the owners and managers, it encourages short termism and over inflated pay/dividends, whilst wages and investment are kept low.

Another thing we could do is start to fine building companies who sit on planning permission for too long. At any given time the big 5 firms have 600,000 or so plots for homes with planning permission, but they only release a number each year in order to keep returns on investment high.

A large crackdown on tax avoidance, conservatively thought to cost the country between £40 and £60 billion a year would further benefit, as would realising that cuts to corporation tax have not led to increased investment ( British corporations are sitting on a £700 bn cash pile at the moment), analyse the opportunity cost of this, and move the cuts somewhere else, preferably to increase the tax thresholds for the lowest and middle earners, who are more likely to spend their increased income than the top.

Without reform from the top down, cuts to benefits merely punish the poor for being poor, with the perpetual excuse of their fecklessness. At the same time as we slash investment in public services that they are more reliant on to help them change their circumstances, the NHS lottery and that of schools is unlikely to be won by those who are in our benefits system or the working poor. Until will have top down change slashing benefits and services is merely punitive not reformative.

This is probably where the problem lies and many have been outlined by those above, people are paid to little, the cost of living is high and many people feel that that life is precariously balanced. This inevitably leads us to look at the meagre possessions and provisions that the poor have, and complain because we feel that there should be a noticeable gap and that they are undeserving.

Until we stop focusing on what the poor have, and what the rich are taking undeservedly there will never be a change.

BillSykesDog · 10/08/2016 22:39

Lurked I am so not buying that. From my own experience of that and others. Told to apply for the wrong thing, have to reapply, have to apply to a different office, forms lost, online form needed missing and nobody tells you for 6 weeks and the rest of the application expires so you have to start the whole application from scratch for the sake of one form. They blatantly just hope that you will get another job or borrow from family and the claim will just be abandoned.

In professions where work is seasonal or cyclical it's well known. It's also the reason why people often won't/can't sign off for temporary or contract work, they simply can't afford the time and expense of trying to get back into a system that does it's best to keep you out.

Foxes I just really can't be arsed to engage with your boring C&P lectures.

smallfox2002 · 10/08/2016 22:41

I ddn't C and P any of it,!

Cant be arsed = Can't challenge.

NeedsAsockamnesty · 10/08/2016 22:45

bill you can do rapid reclaims if you have been in reciept of the benefit within the previous 26 weeks

NeedsAsockamnesty · 10/08/2016 22:46

bill rapid reclaims can be done if you have been in reciept of the benefit within the last 26 weeks

NeedsAsockamnesty · 10/08/2016 22:46

I have no idea how that happened my iPad told me it had t posted