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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

Too many kids

377 replies

OoerBlah · 05/08/2016 02:42

So I've just watched Cathy Come Hone, the Ken Loach play from 1965. It's heartbreaking, no doubt about that. But it made me wonder if there is ever a situation where people might think that having kids if you can't afford them is just, well, don't do it?

I know accidents happen and not all kids are planned. I also know that life is complicated and consequences can't be foretold. But particularly in this day and age of so many finding it difficult to find homes and provide for themselves let alone children - is there ever a time when we should say if you can't afford kids, don't have them?

OP posts:

AppleSetsSail · 06/08/2016 11:44

Thats a particularly dickish comment. Not to mention being completely stupid. Its not a few extra children wrecking the planet, which you should know if you are going to insult peoples families for ecological reasons.

Ah, Hedda, I see you don't hold individuals responsible for their contribution to larger problems.

BungoWomble · 06/08/2016 11:52

Sorry, Apple... once you realise that you get larger families in the developing world and that it's the developed world causing the global environmental problems, it is easy to see that there is not necessarily a link between the two.

But in the west, with a larger ecological footprint generally, a lower population would be better. Although it is the richer here who are more responsible for the environmental problems than the poorer.

HeddaLettuce · 06/08/2016 12:03

Ah, Hedda, I see you don't hold individuals responsible for their contribution to larger problems

Not when it fades into insignificance compared to the real reasons for those problems. It's not relevant.

AppleSetsSail · 06/08/2016 12:11

Bungo I agree with the second part of your post, and don't understand the first.

HeddaLettuce · 06/08/2016 15:36

It's clear you don't really understand the issues at all, not that it stops you having an opinion, and insulting other people while you talk about that opinion.

AppleSetsSail · 06/08/2016 15:57

I see, I misread your first developing as developed.

Westerners have certainly been able to inflict their super-high Co2 footprints on the world for the past several decades, and we bear responsibility for that - it's the G7 that has to lead the way. That said, the Co2 footprints of China and India are set to explode - the links you mention will recalibrate in due course.

gracieben6 · 06/08/2016 15:59

I am a mum of 6 kids with ages ranging 14 to 1 and I often get funny looks at the supermarket for having a lot of kids

AppleSetsSail · 06/08/2016 16:03

And, what you've implied - that is is decadent consumption rather than sheer numbers fuelling environmental degradation - will be less true with each year that passes into unprecedented population.

AndNowItsSeven · 06/08/2016 17:27

No Apple obviously I don't think people with two dc stopped because they don't like their dx. What a ridiculous thing to say.
A poster asked why people have more than two children, I replied with my personal reasons.
Like I said before the uk needs more children , not less. Even with families my size there will not be enough children to care for an aging population.
I am one of four dc and the only one that has children , if we all had two each we would have had 8, so one more than I have.
Childless people outweigh people with large families so no I am not concerned about my children's impact on the planet. The planet is to benefit humans anyway.

PeppaAteMySoul · 06/08/2016 17:34

I'm a mum soon to be bringing two children up in poverty. It wasn't planned or what I wanted. My DP suddenly got very ill and everything has gone to shit. What can we do other than make the best of it? Life is complicated and can throw you a curve ball at any time. No one knows the situation you will end up.
I would love to have a big family but won't because I couldn't afford it. It wouldn't be fair on anybody or the planet

FurryDogMother · 06/08/2016 18:14

The thing is I do understand that people might want a large family because of the pleasure it brings them. I just regard that as a selfish decision. I'm no saint - I'm a meat eater, I used to smoke, I take domestic flights several times a year - but I'm the first to admit that those are selfish choices when it comes to the good of the planet and ideally I should make better choices. I'm working on it, not trying to justify it. Most people make selfish decisions, I just fail to see why those regarding family size are somehow ring-fenced as being beyond criticism or judgement.

HeddaLettuce · 06/08/2016 18:19

Of course its a selfish decision to have a large family. But so is having a small family. OR no family. They are ALL selfish decisions.

I just fail to see why those regarding family size are somehow ring-fenced as being beyond criticism or judgement

They aren't beyond criticism. But if you think its ok to tell some of us that some of our children should not exist, in your opinion, then you have to expect a backlash. Which of my children would YOU prefer was not alive? Do tell.

FurryDogMother · 06/08/2016 18:21

I don't know your children, and even if I did that's a ridiculous question, as you well know. I just wish you'd decided to stop at 2. Actually a 'backlash' is something I anticipated, but would far prefer a reasoned argument.

HeddaLettuce · 06/08/2016 18:23

It's really not. You wish I'd stopped at 2? So the younger two are too many? I'll tell them.

This is the point, you're talking theoretical, but they are real children. This isn't China, we don't tell people how many children they can have. I don't care what you think my family size should be, I don't care what anyone thinks about that.
It's not your business.

FurryDogMother · 06/08/2016 23:42

If they weren't real children, it wouldn't be a problem. You chose to have them. No one is telling you how many you can have - you are obviously free to make whatever decisions you want to - and you decided to have more than two children. However - your decision does affect me, and every other living being on the planet (though my opinion does not affect you). You have made a decision to increase the human population, because you like having a large family, and don't really give a toss about the environmental impact that will have.. I think that's selfish and thoughtless - but my opinion is just that, an opinion on a chat forum - it has no affect on you whatsoever. Of course it's my business, when your actions - and those of others who think and act as you do - mean that the human population will continue to increase at an exponential rate - we share a planet!. You carry on not caring about my opinion, and I'll carry on thinking you have made selfish choices. No one is telling you how many children you can have - but it would be good if people would think about how many they should have.

Primaryteach87 · 06/08/2016 23:49

I think this is quite a slippery slope. Who decides how poor is too poor? To flip it around, you could argue that well off parents who have a 50plus hours a week nanny/childcare and barely see their children during the week are irresponsible since they are too time poor to have children.

NobodyInParticular · 07/08/2016 00:08

AndNowItsSeven

The planet is to benefit humans anyway.

sounds like a religious viewpoint?? (Just curious.)

So practically does this mean that we can create more humans to plunder all the natural resources until those remaining are starving and dying as has hapenned so far, or do you anticipate we actually will solve our resource and climate change issues and become very clean living even with a large population?

NobodyInParticular · 07/08/2016 00:49

Hedda

"What I did say is that parents divide their finite resources between the children they have. It's not as if you get more hours in the day or a larger salary for every child you have, is it!?"

And I do get a larger income for every child I have actually, but Im not in Britain.
I doubt you mean that DH's employer or the benefits system gives you double your total income if you have 2 children, triple if you have 3, quadruple if you have 4 etc which is what would need for having extra children to have no impact. I assume you mean that you get a bit more in benefits / tax breaks for each child you have, as we do in the UK.

I might have many more hours in the day to spend with my children than other people do, so yes, in fact, I do!
Yeah, but you still have 24hrs in the day which you chose to divide between 4 children not 1/2/3.

NobodyInParticular · 07/08/2016 01:03

PrimaryTeach
To flip it around, you could argue that well off parents who have a 50plus hours a week nanny/childcare and barely see their children during the week are irresponsible since they are too time poor to have children.

Yes, I would argue that as well.

It's interesting what some people find acceptable really. Obviously there are parents who can't be bothered in every socio economic group, but of those who do strive to be great parents there seems to be a big range of views from 9p noodles all week are fine to only affording to send them all to Eton will do. I think we have to trust that all parents will be sensible enough to decide what is a good number which some won't.......

HelenaDove · 07/08/2016 01:14

lala Im childfree by choice and i was also told in my late 20s/early 30s that i was too young to know my own mind when i asked to be sterilized.

It is not available to everyone willy nilly as people believe. Im now 43 and have known for nearly 25 years that i wouldnt have children.

I dont agree with the new policies though because of domestic abuse and reproductive coercion.

As a childfree by choice something like this happening would be a nightmare.

Original poster

OoerBlah · 07/08/2016 04:53

AndNowItsSeven

The planet is to benefit humans anyway

How can any rational person think this way? Humans, like every other species, inhabit this planet by accident. We don't have any exclusive 'rights' to its resources, no more than we 'own' it. Good god, the sheer arrogance of some human beings is breathtaking.

OP posts:

sashh · 07/08/2016 06:10

The problem is how on earth you get rid of the tax credit system without causing extreme hardship in the short term.

You tax the employer the amount their employees are getting in tax credits + an amount, so it is cheaper to employ people on more money than it is to have all your employees on tax credits.

You also monitor and fine companies that suddenly make parents redundant and replace them with a teenager.

minifingerz · 07/08/2016 06:23

If you'd asked me this a few years ago I would have disagreed. However I have now watched 5 women I know grow their families to 6 children, when only 1 of the 5 has a full time salary coming in to the home. Three of the women are single and have never worked. i don't think our benefits system should reward that level of irresponsibility.

AppleSetsSail · 07/08/2016 06:54

Has this thread been mistaken for the tax credit limit one?

Of course its a selfish decision to have a large family. But so is having a small family. OR no family. They are ALL selfish decisions.

Of course it's not a selfish decision to not have children. Who is it adversely impacting? I have to wonder if you've ever considered reading about how humans inflict themselves on the planet through overfishing, deforestation, Co2 emissions, etc.

You're pretty delicate for one who's wandered onto a thread titled too many kids? If you don't want to know what people think about your choices, don't click on it.

AndNowItsSeven · 07/08/2016 09:34

Op the planet wasn't created by accident, God created the earth in such a way that everything works.
Of course humans don't own it we should look after the resources but they are for us.

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