Too many kids

[OoerBlah]

So I've just watched Cathy Come Hone, the Ken Loach play from 1965. It's heartbreaking, no doubt about that. But it made me wonder if there is ever a situation where people might think that having kids if you can't afford them is just, well, don't do it?

I know accidents happen and not all kids are planned. I also know that life is complicated and consequences can't be foretold. But particularly in this day and age of so many finding it difficult to find homes and provide for themselves let alone children - is there ever a time when we should say if you can't afford kids, don't have them?

I'm the eldest of five and, yes, we were very poor and lived in a bit of a rough part of town. However, my parents made it very clear there was more to life than money, they had five children because they loved being parents. I loved being a big sister so many times over actually.

I do feel sad when people talk about poor people breeding "like rabbits". It's dehumanising. I was often made to feel less than human as a child because my family were on benefits (my dad had a bad accident just before number five came along). No school trips, being the only kid in the year sitting in school while the others went to France or Wembley, often struggling to find food for lunch, having to take a crappy 25 hour a week job in a rough part of town to support myself at 15/16...whilst doing 40 hours a week at college.

Would I have benefitted from more financial resource to go around and my own room? Possibly, but I genuinely think my childhood and the concessions you definitely need to make as the eldest of five children have influenced me as a person in a positive way.

One person's "too many kids" is another person's "go on then, one more!"

For what it's worth, all five of us are grown up with degrees and good jobs. We all pay a fair wedge of income tax between us.

Children in large families do badly in tests? Totally biased article from the Fail because they know that large families are associated with working class people.

I have an MA, so does my brother.

My dad would give us all spelling tests every week and ran a "homework club" after school for us all where we were encouraged to get it all done before dinner. He would also encourage us all creatively and made sure that, despite our poverty, we had access to pads, pens, felt tips etc so that we could write, draw and express ourselves. I'm realising as a adult how lucky I was.

My mum also taught me to read aged four and to write my name and address.

Even though they were poor, damaged and came from horrific family environments themselves, my parents worked hard to break the cycle and give us a good start in life.

I know it's anecdotal but I wanted to share my large family story.

Ifailed many forms of contraception are better at preventing pregnancy than sterilisation. Go for the implant if you want to prevent pregnancy.

But really? Abort or don't have sex? Those are some extreme views you are espousing.

Having kids is selfish. Driving a car is selfish. Owning a home is selfish. Eating meat is selfish. Using electricity to faff and argue on the Internet is selfish.

Most of human activity is.

DH is one of 6, all in full employment, one if whom has 5.

My DF is one of 9, they struggled but again, all have jobs.

People should be left to have the number of children they want.

I don't think that poor people SHOULDN'T have kids, it isn't fair to expect people to ignore their desire to have a family because they don't have much money.

I do however think people should think carefully about how many children they have. If you are low paid, unable to support a lot of children, have 1, or 2 at a push. See how you can manage your budget. Don't be an idiot and deliberately have 6 kids just because you wanted to.

My DH comes from a family of 9. Him and 3 other older siblings were shipped off to boarding schools "to make room" for younger ones, and because parents couldn't cope too well. Relationships in the family -- 'troubled' or 'dysfunctional' doesn't cover it.

My ex and I had five children..he was a high earner, we could afford every one of them. Our marriage broke up and I raised five kids who were all under ten at the time, on benefits, tax credits, child benefit - the lot, and I was so, so grateful for it. What else could I do, send some of them back?

And as to the large families and tests things - well four of them have gone on to university, all five are employed - and two of them are accountants, stupified at how much people can earn and avoid paying tax on)....

The only people with lots of children are the very ritch
Donald trip has about 6 I think or very poor

In the uk the state infalizies the poor and abdicate them of respobilty

We have 3 children he dosent get a wage incesses the more children we have had and the bank won't give us a bigger home

So we have stopped at 3 becausewe can't afford more and no will support our choice if we did

If we had welfare I can we'll see how we may end up with 4 or five our choice would be supported and paid for we would have a bigger home and our benfits would increase with each child we had

If we had two more children we would be better of on welfare than we are with 3 children and my husband working

That's really sad

It's hard for a lot of people I had to have my children young and wasn't in a financial position to afford them but it was have them or never have them due to medical problems. I my case it's never been that they went without my self and my partner would go with out food so that the kids had a full tummy and rent was paid. I work now so it's easier but that was just the card that was dealt

poster Zaphodsotherhead Fri 05-Aug-16 07:46:12
*the issue most people have is not those whom start of working with good intentions it those

Who are already in a position were they can't afford the children and go ahead any way
There was a thread on here a last week that demonstrates this perfectly she wanted a 3 child and and was trying to work out what benfits would pay for this

And I often hear of people baseing having a child on what benfits they will get rather than the actual wage they are currently earning

So people will say oh tax credits it this much so I can have 2 children instead of saying I earn this much so I can afford 1 child

And for a lot of people

Somone has q child they can't afford is often ungracious about the fact Somone else is getting up in the morning for work to pay for those said children and actually have the fucking cheek to cry foul and on top moan they want more money when the very people who are paying for this flight of fancy take issue with the situation.

It's crazy

I used to work in a school in a very deprived area. Many of the parents had 3+ children but seemed to get no joy out of them. Constant shouting, no help with homework, school was very much viewed as childcare. I couldn't help wonder why have lots of children if you get no pleasure out of it ?!

You cannot unconceive the children that are already here so it's a pointless conservation.

Also why is it acceptable to live in a country where people are so poor? Why is acceptable to have food banks? People killing themselves because their benefits are being cut off yet they're disabled and therefore cannot work.

I think it digsuting that people think it is acceptable for other human beings, who are not so different except for the lack of money, should be left to rot in housing which you wouldn't let animals live in.

YABU

Its not just a financial thing. Its how you can cope in general. When you have to get rid of some kids to make room for others, when older ones become substitute parents -- that is dysfunctional regardless of how much in benefits you can collect

I will also add - the stories of large families on benefits in the daily mail is incredibly rare!

Honestly people use your logical brains.

"Children are a biological imperative."

Not for me they aren't.

elQuintoConyo -
Why make it personal (your attack on Really Tired's viewpoint). Are you trying to shut down debate? My soapbox issue concerns posters who will not allow others to hold different views to theirs without becoming personally abusive. MN encourages open, free debate, please don't try to stop this.

poster Believeitornot Fri

*i worked for ss for 8 years if only pretty much every child who was in foster care or on the co register was one of 5 or one of 8 if you talk to any adopter most of the children have x amount of sibling spread between other adopters and foster carers

I have adopted two children dd1 is one of 12 and dd2 is one of 6 and both mums are under 40

*i worked for ss for 8 years if only pretty much every child who was in foster care or on the co register was one of 5 or one of 8 if you talk to any adopter most of the children have x amount of sibling spread between other adopters and foster carers

That doesn't mean that there are huge numbers of families, in the grand scheme of things, who are a) workless and b) claiming benefits though.

Does it?

I was one of 6.... My mum had children with more than one man.

I still don't believe that you get millions of people out there having children to play the system or whatever.

And actually I still believe that the state should act as a safety net as it did for me.

I did not choose my circumstances. Why punish me for them?

I'm now a very high earner doing very well. God knows where I would have been if the state wasn't around to support me.

poster Believeitornot F

people are so poor yes in Brazil maybe but in the uk it's largely about choices I have worked with families who don't have a bed for there children but will spend £700+ on buying a husky

if you cannot provide for yur children the logic would say you don't have money for pets

We could discuss this till the cows come home. Our family were 'hard up' rather than poor, not as bad as Dad's generation (the poorer kids wore plimsolls all year round, no boots for winter - not quite as Dickensian as it sounds) and there were five of us, none of us were planned, we 'just came along' - fairly typical in the 50s.

Contraception is better now, not seen as 'unnatural'. I suspect if everyone waited till the time was right to have a family they'd be fewer families. How do you know what's round the corner? But I think that if you are really struggling it's not good to bring children into the world. Dolly Parton sings that her family was 'poor but happy' but isn't that romanticising it all? It's can't be fun being poor.

I watched that movie last night too, after reading a review in the feminist webzine Standard Issue. I think you spectacularly missed the point of the movie, OP

poster Believeitornot F

If you watch the pole thing that was on last night the police man had it right 5% of people take up 95% of your resources and time

Sadly you only need 2,3 family's whom are very ,large and dysfunctional to take most of a LAs social resources

For example you can have a council easte of 400+ homes and it's usually 1 family causing all the issues It's draining and yes there should be a safety net but we should also be trying to change bahviour if a mother has 7 children and has never worked we don't want each of her children doing the same and sadly with out intevention the likey hood is they will just throwing more money at it won't work some of these families have a net income that is more than some lower middle class families and they still have issues it's about there thinking not there income level

Why are you only talking about the mother?

What about the father?

And as I said earlier a) it is not usual and b) what about the children who did not choose this life? Let them sink?

I would rather we had a better safety net which may actually stop people getting into unemployment or suffering from mental health issues which prevent them from working and we wouldn't have these situations.

Instead we let people sink...? Changing behaviour requires a safety net. That's what I am saying.