Letting agent trying to deduct for professional cleaning

[ShoeEatingMonster]

We gave the keys to our rental flat back on Sat (technically didn't have to be out until the Sunday) We've been in our new place since the start of the month so it's been empty to allow us to clean.
Anyway, the letting agents did their inventory check out on Tuesday and we've just had an email through stating that the landlady has asked for professional cleaners to be brought in to deal with the issues in the report (see below) and that if we're happy to take it out of the deposit to let them know. I'm not going to quibble over what I think are very minor issues some of which aren't even us but my issue is that they haven't said how much they what to deduct. The carpets have all been professionally cleaned as per the tenancy agreement. The report is loooooong but I've copied and pasted to show their wording:

**The detailed report is as follows:
Entrance Hall:

The floor would benefit from mopping to remove prints from footwear.

Lounge:

The walls are very slightly scuffed at low level.

The skirting boards are a little dusty, especially beneath the radiators.

The white curtains are of slightly soiled appearance with a number of very small dot marks in a line on one curtain.

Bathroom:

The sanitary ware (especially behind the WC) could be slightly cleaner.

The mirrored door to the cabinet could be slightly cleaner.

There are some oval deposits/marks on the tiled window sill, probably from the bottom of plastic soap bottles etc.

Bedroom One:

The drawers are a little dusty within and some human hair is present.

The mirror to the dressing table could be slightly cleaner. There are four small sticky marks to the top left corner where a sticker may have been applied and removed.

One of the bulbs in the recess above the bed is not working.

There is a sizable darkish mark just to the front right of the dressing table. This seems not to have been removable during the cleaning process. Some other slight marks were noted.

Bedroom Two:

A further bulb in the four spot fitting has failed, making two in total. The fitting is a little dusty.

Kitchen:

A screw appears to have been added to the wall above the radiator.

Only three of the four window lock keys were present (they all appear to be the same profile so the loss of one has little/no impact).

The sides of the dishwasher door that are not subject to the washing action could be cleaner.

The glass door to the oven could be cleaner.

The top of the extractor hood is a little greasy and dusty.

A round glass wall clock appears to have been left together with three GU10 type light bulbs in a box.

There are some light liquid spill marks to some of the cupboard doors.

The external wooden door to the integrated washing machine is not aligned correctly. The hinges appear to have been changed at some point.

The skirting boards are a little dusty in places.

The vinyl flooring has light debris in some of the corners.**

We left that flat having cleaned it from top to bottom. I'd agree with the stain on the carpet and oven door which I couldn't shift but deny the rest. Especially footprints in the hall. The carpet cleaner was in before the checkout and presumably it was him the left the footprints cos they weren't there when we left. He also didn't put the alarm on which is being blamed on us!

I've emailed and asked for an exact breakdown of what they want to deduct. There is no set standard for cleanliness in the tenancy agreement it just says deposit can be used to cover cleaning costs. Considering it says at the beginning of the report that the flat is a generally clean state and they say things 'could be cleaner' surely that's subjective?
If he comes back with a set price we can agree on we'll pay to avoid the hassle but if not I will fight them. I am not agreeing to pay an unspecified amount for a job I don't believe needs doing. Any advice?

I have always paid for professional cleaning on check out, thought that it was the norm tbh, where I live South East there are loads of companies offering these services. When I moved into the property it was obviously professionally cleaned and on exit I arranged the same. I briefly let out our house and did the same.

Have they offered for you to arrange for professional cleaners of your choice to go in rather than pay theirs? I had a dispute and found that the estate agent cleaning crew charged much more than the market costs.

Reasonable wear and tear should include scuffs.

The advice to refuse to pay and refer it to the deposit protection scheme is the best advice. That's what they're there for, and if they decide you still need to pay out for stuff then so be it but I think you'll find the agency back down significantly.

They refused to believe I'd had the carpets cleaned even though I had a receipt, because it was a small company and a hand written receipt...absolute nightmare.

That to me, all sounds like reasonable wear and tear. I would heavily dispute it and refuse to pay

I mean that when I let our house I paid for cleaning before we let it, they paid for cleaning on exit. I actually queried the cleaning as there was a very strong dog smell and gave them the opportunity to rectify, they sent in their own people to clean carpets again. We didn't deduct anything,

ladymarymoo- no, its not the norm, unless the property was delivered professionally cleaned at the start of the tenancy. Some LLs do pay for a professional clean, but others go round with a duster and a vacuum cleaner but expect a professional clean at the end.
Even if the contract says you agree to a professional clean, the clause cannot be enforced as its betterment.

It all depends on whether they can prove it was professionally cleaned at the commencement of the tenancy. Have you asked?

We had the seem issue, stastics state it rare that renters get their full deposit back. It's such a grey area often carpets can be well worn but landlords often try it on Although you could to contest what is wear and tire same with the scratches on the wall.

We lost 200 pounds for it being unclean the lying scum didn't want to view with me present. It was cleaned, I washed the doors skirting boards everywhere, hired a professional carpet cleaner but the carpet were ruined, they weren't they were in the same condition as when we moved in well women cream carpets. He had the nerve to charge us to fresh up the walls even though we had the house repainted when he repainted. He pretty much blackmailed us if we didn't accept losing the 200 he would take the full lot as there was punch holes in a couple of doors from the last tentant that he failed to repair.

Personally a landlord should always give another surface clean and decorate for the next tentant it shouldn't be charged from the previous tentant or the following tenants responsibility.

A requirement to have a rental property professionally cleaned at the end of the tenancy is usually written into every rental agreement. If you can't produce a receipt for said cleaning you will get charged. Sadly people's idea of what constitutes 'clean' varies wildly often resulting in some departing tenants being genuinely bemused when they are told that leaving food in the fridge, skid marks in the toilet bowl and a dirty oven is not acceptable. It happens way more then you think and the solution unfortunately to all those tidy people out there is a blanket requirement for professional cleaners.

Pangalactic that clause can only be enforced if it was professionally cleaned when the tenant moved in otherwise it's betterment

I've always cleaned myself on check out and have always had my full deposit back (except one time for carpet cleaning, which we agreed with the LL). I don't think anywhere I've ever moved into has ever been professionally cleaned either (this is London Zone 2). They've always been pretty clean but with the odd issue where somebody obviously missed a drawer or a shelf or whatever. So although issues have been picked up on the check out report, the landlord has always said it's in a good state overall: some things better, some things worse, some wear and tear to be expected.

Such a shame your LL seems to be being unreasonable, especially given the carpets are clearly in a better state than you found them. As others have said, from what I've heard of the tenancy deposit schemes you'd have a good chance of getting everything back, so if it's more than a nominal amount I would go to arbitration personally! Reading between the lines I wonder if the LL asked the agent to find problems, hence the half-hearted language on the agent's part and the LL following up with yet more (ridiculous) issues that the agent was too embarrassed to put down...

I certainly don't think you can be charged for a low level of scuffing that you can't even see on a photo! That must be the definition of wear and tear?

I actually hate estate agents. We dealt with 2 in London, both awful and it was only when we left our first apartment when the LL reassigned a new agent did we receive a letter from the LL stating 'Thank You' for highlighting all the issues with his brand new £1.5million apt as the estate agent didn't want to deal with them. The LL was so glad we got everything fixed and pushed for it-the apt was a couple of weeks old when we moved in and everything was under guarantee. Windows on the outside cracked(4th floor) and countless other issues with pretty much every fixture and fitting!

The 2nd Estate Agent turned out to be the silent owner of the house and this was never disclosed and we had hell with them. Builders point blank refused to work with the EA as they didn't pay bills and we even had an engineer go out of his way to deal with issues as we had a baby and the EA told us to suck it up that we didn't have heating or hot water over a Christmas period. Needless to say we got all money back for 1st rental. And not all back for 2nd.

Does you tenancy agreement state it has to be professionally cleaned? Ours did...and where you there for inventory? Can you be there when cleaners are there to point out it was like that when you moved in. And you are entitled to the inventory report and should've had it at checkout and they should've made sure you had it.

In Australia we rented an apt that when we moved in, I noticed the floors were filthy so I scrubbed them (on my hands and knees scrubbing) and upon check out, the guy was like-well these are different tiles as they had a slight brown tinge to them....I promptly and smartly said-Yeap, that was dirt and he quickly shut up!

They like to rip people off!!

After two years, scuff marks etc should be regarded as wear and tear imho. Same with carpet stains etc.

As a landlord I wouldn't expect a place to be perfectly clean, and would get cleaners in anyway as a matter of course.

Dispute it.

Our last landlord tried to withhold a portion of our deposit in part because there were marks in the carpet where the bed had stood! He also claimed for "redecorating because of stubborn dirty marks" despite our receipt for the professional cleaning services we had engaged on moving out to get rid of any trace of our pets.

As we hadn't realised we had to invest in levitating furniture, it not being a clause in the lease, we went through an ADR and got our entire deposit back. I'd go down that route OP. Advise by email you don't agree with any of the deductions and that you intend to raise an ADR. Less stressful in the long run.

the landlady has asked for professional cleaners to be brought in to deal with the issues in the report (see below) and that if we're happy to take it out of the deposit to let them know.

This, to me, sounds like this isn't a done deal and that you have the option to decline/negotiate.

What strikes me about the list of items is the number of minimising adjectives/phrases, suggesting issues that are barely there ('light', 'little', 'slightly', 'small', 'could be cleaner' etc).

I'm guessing there's a good chance the cleaning charge wouldn't even be used for professional cleaners. Easy way to skim some money off the bond.

Ask for proof (eg receipts) that it was professionally cleaned before you moved in. And say you won't agree till they provide you witha copy of the signed in-going inventory.

I am a LL, and there is a difference between a "good domestic clean" and a "prof clean". Either, or the fact it is not clean at all, should be noted on the inventory.

If they can't come up with the first two, then I think you could well win at arbitration, but this takes months and it might be that your deposit is held till then. Still not reason why you should make it easy if they don';t have actual proof of the state when you moved in.

By "professional cleaners," they probably mean a bunch of students on break from Uni. I wouldn't put my son and his mates in the "professional" bracket.

Just read your original post again and I am just so cross on your behalf OP!

Have they given you chance to go back in yourself and rectify? Because it would literally take 5 minutes to sort half of their stupid picky things out. (Round marks from bottles on window sill? Bulb missing? Get a life!)

I am a LL, and there is a difference between a "good domestic clean" and a "prof clean". Either, or the fact it is not clean at all, should be noted on the inventory.

Really? I find a good domestic clean is generally WAY better than the 'professional' never clean on top of wardrobes clean you get with the agencies.

Cosmo111 when did that happen to you? There is no way with a decent check in inventory and a protected deposit you would have lost anything for the defects that were there from the previous tenant.

It is your responsibility as a tenant to make sure the check in inventory is correct. DO not sign the inventory unless it details everything - scuff marks on the floor, loose bit of carpet, oven not clean etc. You should also take shit loads of photos and email to the agents when you move in to supplement the check in inventory.

Then try and be there when the check out inventory is done, and also take loads of photos.

With both check in and check out inventory and photos - you should have no problem getting all of your deposit back (unless you genuinely have damaged something). DPS is a fantastic thing for the rights of renters and is exceedingly fair to tenants.

Scuff marks are wear and tear, ditto the curtains

Hair in the bedroom furniture is gross, and if there are shampoo bottle marks in the bathroom it sounds like you didn't do a great job in there if I'm honest.

"if there are shampoo bottle marks in the bathroom it sounds like you didn't do a great job in there if I'm honest."

I agree but then the carpets are clearly cleaner than on move in - so doesn't this come out in the wash?

To give you an example our final rental place I got interrupted doing the bathroom clean as a letting agent came round with some new prospective tenants. Fair dos, I got distracted and there was bath cleaner still on the side of the bath when they did the check out (i.e. I hadn't rinsed off) - entirely my mistake. But then the windows and oven were both much cleaner than when we moved in (when the oven was filthy and the windows covered in children's smeary handprints), and the LL agreed and didn't want to keep any of our deposit.

I think the key is to make sure you mark up any issues (even small) on the check-in inventory, as others have said. Basically assume the check-out inventory will be ultra-picky and do the same on the way in (with photos). But some of the things you are being hauled up on sound minor. Even the bottle rings, if that's all it is, would take 20 seconds to clean up, and the fact they are mentioning "heavy scuffing" which isn't visible on a photograph, combined with the very half-hearted language used in the check-out report, makes me think it cannot actually have been in a bad state overall.

Most of the main issues have been covered by pp. The issue of scuffs is not entirely straight forward. During a normal tenancy, with reasonably careful tenants, some scuff marks are likely and would count as fair wear and tear. The longer the tenancy and the more people living in the property the more likely it would be that scuffs will be fair wear and tear. If the scuffs are heavy or so extensive that they suggest a lack of care then they may be attributed as the tenant's responsibility rather than fair wear and tear.

If the agent or LL is claiming that there are extensive scuff marks they should provide clear dated photographs to show what and where they are. In my view this can't be done just with a general room shot but would need pictures that show the location, size and colouring of the scuffs

You should absolutely have been given a copy of the finalised signed inventory and should have had a chance to comment on any cleaning issues or marks not noted in the inventory.

You were right to ask for the cleaning charges to be itemised and I agree with all of the pp's that have recommend that if you can't reach a solution that you are happy with you take it to dispute. The agent/LL will then have to provide clear evidence for their claims.

I think they're taking the piss. I couldn't see any points in their breakdown that wouldn't be considered under categories such as general wear and tear or the like. If the landlord wants her property professionally cleaned to showroom condition tell her to pay for it herself. It's exactly because of chancing shysters like this that the DPS was introduced. Stand firm and tell them in no uncertain terms to do one.

Marley, you are right which is why most estate agents will get a copy of the previous cleaning receipt.

Clam

While I have no doubt some professional cleaning outfits are run by chancers most are not. As mentioned before I used to work as an estate agent and there is a big noticeable difference between a 'good clean' by tenants and a deep clean by professional cleaners who bring with them industrial cleaning agents, carpet and upholstery steamers and a brief of exactly what is required from them.

Irony being is that new tenants go out of their way to complain about dust on the skirting boards or some scuff in he bathtub but are often reluctant to hold themselves to the same standards when they leave.

I'm a professional cleaner specialising in end of tenancy cleans only.
There is no way I would charge an hourly rate as this is a licence to print money!
I view, quote and the quote goes back to the tenant who agrees or not! Insist on a quote up front.
Also I would recommend using the agencys cleaners. Unless they are £££ because you could get your own cleaners in they fail to do a proper job (this happens a lot) then you get charged again.
The agencies I work with make no money on my cleaning as they are reputable but I have heard of some that do add on.
A decent cleaning company will provide an upfront cost.