If he doesn't want a baby, you shouldn't seek CSA

[NeedACleverNN]

Why the hell is this line still trotted out?

I've even seen it on here. Woman falls pregnant, boyfriend doesn't want it and wants an abortion. She doesn't. People advise her to keep the baby and let him go. Don't bother seeking child maintenance because he didn't want the baby in the first place.

No!! If he didn't want a baby he should take his own precautions to preventing pregnancy. You don't like condoms? You don't have sex!

I can't believe I am getting stuck in this discussion. Malice, isn't it already rather obvious that a woman's arguably larger right to choose in the situations concerning childbirth comes with a load more responsibility than a man has? Isn't it obvious that the whole idea that women should have more rights than men in this situation is actually a result of them automatically ending up with more responsibility and not the other way around?

It's been repeated like a million times already on this thread that the process of reproduction for men pretty much amounts to a few minutes of pleasure (on average), whereas women have to undergo drastic, sometimes permanent and (thankfully rarely now) fatal changes to their bodies, go through a of physical and sometimes mental pain, and then get stuck (often for years) with breastfeeding, sleep deprivation, reduced freedom of movement and reduced earnings. Just by the fact that a pregnant woman has to take much better care of herself (no drinking, smoking, unhealthy eating) than she could otherwise leaves her with more responsibility than a man who can continue as normal. Increased responsibility is why a woman has more rights.

Basically, it's tough shit if a man has to pay for a child that he managed to create but did not want or decided that he did not want later, just as it is tough shit that a woman might end up wearing incontinence pads for life after going through childbirth. Seems rather fair to me.

The woman doesn't have to go ahead with it though, Autumn, at least in this country we thankfully have a choice. MAP if a contraception failure was realised at the time, then abortion or even adoption- there are plenty of couples queuing up where both prospective parents are willing and able to commit financially and emotionally to a child and have actively made the decision to have a child.

It's also even more tough shit for the child to be brought into the world that isn't wanted by one of its parents , which will most likely also miss out on love and nurturing from paternal grandparents etc.

I think people are unaware of how people are having babies. I am in a program which houses pregnant young mothers (in people's houses, hence why I'm involved). So I've had a succession of pregnant young women through my house. All are sure, all are preparing, all are trying hard.

The 'dad' in almost every case is either absent, or goes through a tortuous sequence of... it's mine-it's not mine-my sister said you shagged someone else-on FB someone said you said blah blah blah-I love you let's make it work-I hate you I'm shagging someone else-I love you again

Basing whether a young women should have an abortion, or get CM, based on this bullshit is frankly terrifying. A very few of the young men grow up, almost all of the young women do. And they parent excellently. They come out of street living, addiction, other worse things and they try really hard. The least these young men can do is part with a small amount of cash, even if it's just to encourage them not to do it again.

LittleMoonbuggy, if the woman decides not to go through it, the man does not have to pay. No?

As a woman I am in 100 percent control of my fertility. Even if a condom breaks, or we get carried away and slack off on contraception, or if properly-used hormonal contraception fails, or any other scenario, I cannot be forced to become a mother.

Good for you but have you thought maybe not every woman is happy to go ahead with an abortion? It's a very unpleasant and often damaging procedure - physically and mentally.

A well-intentioned, responsible and caring male partner (they aren't all the jerks made out here by the man-haters on this board)

Oh yawn. Thinking men should take responsibility for their offspring is not man hating.

who finds his female partner is pregnant despite best and mutually agreed-upon efforts not to become so, can still be forced to become a father against his wishes.

So let me get this straight - a woman can have sex with the fact she can get an abortion in mind, if need be. However a man, because he can't get an abortion, has zero responsibility and can claim he is 'forced' into it.

How about men so this - be very aware he has no say in if a woman keeps a baby that he may impregnate her with. And therefore take extra precautions when having sex. Or, as I stated in my post last night, he could not try and fuck everything that moves willy-nilly ('accuse the pun) or get to know someone before sleeping with them so that he's confident a woman is on the same page re babies?

I really do not think that is fair and that if a woman chooses to carry forward a pregnancy when pre-conception it was agreed between them that they did not want their sexual relationship to result in another human being, that she should be responsible for the outcome. 100 percent of the choice, 100 percent of the responsibility. As a woman I do not feel that is unfair.

Again, let's say this was the case - how would that be managed in terms of child support? Would a man saying retrospectively "I never wanted kids" be enough for PR to be removed, therefore leaving a child potentially in poverty and growing up with no father? Is that fair Lilac? Or is the child to blame the mother for her sloppy decision?

Here's an idea: how about everyone stop being a big blameless cry baby and face up to the fact that he is 50% responsible for producing a child, stick his hand in his pocket and perhaps take it as a lesson learnt to be more careful in the future?

Little I do see your points it at the same time I feel you are saying that only people with money or jobs should have kids, and that having kids is the worst thing that could possibly happen to you. I have a family member who fell pregnant at 18 and everyone acted like the world was ending. It's a baby FFS, some people see it as a good thing

then abortion or even adoption- there are plenty of couples queuing up where both prospective parents are willing and able to commit financially and emotionally to a child and have actively made the decision to have a child.

Because we all know that either option is a walk in the park

What if a woman doesn't want to adopt or have an abortion?

Pie, I agree. I am always bemused when people suggest abortion and adoption as some kind of get-out-of-jail free card. Just because women have options does not mean that any of these options are easy.

Yes if the man doesn't want to be a father he should pay towards the cost if it's a private termination. At least then the couple would be doing the decent thing, not bringing a child into the world that isn't wanted by both parents. As I've stated several times above, it shouldn't have ever come to a conception in the first place though.

I really do not think that is fair and that if a woman chooses to carry forward a pregnancy when pre-conception it was agreed between them that they did not want their sexual relationship to result in another human being, that she should be responsible for the outcome. 100 percent of the choice, 100 percent of the responsibility. As a woman I do not feel that is unfair.

As the child, you might feel it is bloody unfair.

LittleMoonbuggy, sorry, I really don't get your point about the child being wanted by both parents. Is being wanted by both parents some kind of moral or practical prerequisite for being born? Do you mean children who are not wanted by their fathers should be aborted? Do you mean that a woman who does not want to go through an abortion but does so nonetheless to comply with the wishes of the man is doing a "decent thing"?

If you don't want to adopt or abort, take multiple precautions to at least massively reduce the likelihood of it happening to you. Worked for me, I'm due DC3 but had many years of being sexually active without a hint of accidental pregnancy.

I don't think money should be a barrier necessarily, I have no problem with people claiming tax credits, child benefits etc, but when there is more vetting of people wanting to re home a dog from the RSPCA than people having kids without thinking of the child before getting pregnant, it doesn't seem right. For me, it's all about the life of the prospective child and it not feeling rejected or unwanted.

No one asks to be born, it just seems a huge responsibility and the wellbeing of a prospective child should be considered above all else- and it's existence prevented if the situation is not a good one.

At least then the couple would be doing the decent thing, not bringing a child into the world that isn't wanted by both parents

Unplanned doesn't always equal unwanted.

I say this as someone who had a termination as a teenager, for which I have no regrets. It's not like having a check up at the dentist - terminations are painful and scary and very emotional - and something only a woman will experience, which is why she and only she should ever make that decision.

I think this quote is rather relevant for this thread BTW

Personally I wouldn't go through with a pregnancy where the father made clear he didn't want it. Doesn't seem fair on the child to start its life being rejected by its dad, and likely paternal grandparents etc. I've worked with kids in that situation through youth work, social care and the rejection can run deep and long lasting.

Before that actually happened though I'd be beyond furious with myself for being reckless enough for the conception happening in the first place, in modern day Britain with the many contraception options available.

"100% choice, 100% responsibility" is exactly what women do have for the duration of pregnancy/childbirth (assuming they do actually have the choices available).

Choosing birth, adoption (still have to birth), or abortion is not like picking a card. Every single one of those options has physical/hormonal/mental consequences for the woman's body (sometimes severe/fatal), and absolutely zero consequences for the man's body. Hence the discrepancy in choice throughout this stage.

Once the child is born, then it reverts to both parents having choice/responsibility.

If you're saying that a woman should continue to have 100% choice and 100% responsibility after the birth of the child, then yes he wouldn't have to pay, but that would mean she could choose whether the father had any input/visitation/involvement at all, regardless of his wishes and/or fitness as a parent.

On a planet teeming and gasping under the weight of 7 billion people, who are doing massive destruction to the environment and other species, yes, children who are not fervently wanted via mutual agreement by two stable, solvent, employable parents should be aborted. I don't mind saying that.

LittleMoonbuggy, what is the relevance of your personal choice to what the law of the land should be? The discussion here is about the law and not about our individual preferences.

I was pretty lucky that contraception was covered thoroughly at my school, as well as the financial and emotional responsibilities involved in having a child. I'm sure some schools don't do a good job at that, leaving teens uniformed which is worrying.

Personally I wouldn't go through with a pregnancy where the father made clear he didn't want it.

That's probably because you're viewing an unwanted pregnancy situation from the point in your life now where you already have 3 DC.

If you were a childless woman in her late 30s who never had a long term relationship, but fell pregnant accidentally and thought "this may be my only chance to have a child", you would see it differently. Similar if you thought you had fertility issues and fell pregnant, like many on this thread have.

It's also very depressing think that every child needs a father or they'll have a shit life. It's also depressing to think that women should deprive themselves of somethings they (may) want because a man can't be arsed putting the work in.

Can we all find a way where women and children don't actually have to suffer because men regret what they do with their own is please?

An Lilac it's the planet you care about. Gotcha. I trust you are posting from your electricity free shed in the woods?