If he doesn't want a baby, you shouldn't seek CSA

[NeedACleverNN]

Why the hell is this line still trotted out?

I've even seen it on here. Woman falls pregnant, boyfriend doesn't want it and wants an abortion. She doesn't. People advise her to keep the baby and let him go. Don't bother seeking child maintenance because he didn't want the baby in the first place.

No!! If he didn't want a baby he should take his own precautions to preventing pregnancy. You don't like condoms? You don't have sex!

I am really uncomfortable with the phrase "if he doesn't want a baby he shouldn't have sex"

Surely that should be said of BOTH parties. If a woman doesn't want a baby should she refrain from having PIV sex?

Me neither Twatbadging. It wasn't an easy decision, and one I wish I'd never had to make, but I've never regretted it. Which is a viewpoint that some people don't like. I remember posting about it on a previous thread here, saying that I have never regretted it, and being told that I was disgusting for 'bragging' about not caring that I'd killed my baby. Because of course I should have off self-flagellating, and too filled with shame to dare mention it on a thread about the very topic.

Yes, you're absolutely right re the mindset that all women must love and want children, and must be punished for daring to deviate from that.

Okay, so what about this situation: A friend of mine had been sleeping with this guy for years. She had a huge crush on him. She actually asked him if he would father her child (she has two other children). He (politely)said no.

Two months later, she's pregnant. She turned around & told him that if he didn't want a baby, he should have insisted on contraception . He said 'ive been sleeping with you for years, unprotected, and you never fell pregnant then'. He pays child support, but has had a lot of shit from her family for nor stepping up. He made it clear that he did not want a child with her & she carried on, regardless

Sorry but this REALLY fucks me off. So he's quite happy to get his end away on his terms for years, without contraception, yet has a hissy fit when the woman he's been shagging when it suits him actually falls pregnant? Too right he should pay and et grief for not stepping up. He sounds like a horrible manchild.

He didn't adore her.

Maybe he shouldn't have constantly put his dick in her then. Did he ever consider her feelings or was his penis too important?

He deserves everything he gets. Poor child and woman

He pays maintenance but refuses to see this child that he did not want

He's a selfish wanker

I can't believe that there are still so many ignorant and woefully misinformed 'women' (because I'm doubtful some of them are) appearing on this thread to say 'yeah but the poor men and the stupid women!'.

'He didn't want to get married either' - how was he forced? At gunpoint?
'She said she wanted a baby but he didn't answer she just carried on anyway' - carried on doing what? Riding him against his will? Rendering him unconscious and stealing his sperm?
'Women shouldn't be having unplanned pregnancies in 2016' - just women? All the blame going on women in every last one of your posts LittleMoonBuggy.

i do think there's something very wrong with lying to someone in order to get pregnant - be it male or female.

However the problem is that all these anecdotal scenarios - "she said she was on the pill" "I made it clear I didn't want kids" etc - if, for argument's sake, we said there'd be set criteria for giving up PR in these circumstances, how would that be decided?

Would it depend on if they were a couple for years or just a one night stand? Would it be assessed what contraception was used? Would the type of relationship be taken into account? Who would decide the criteria, and even if it was decided - how the hell would you prove it??

What a huge waste of times and resources that would be. It's far easier to say "people who produce offspring no matter the circumstances should be financially responsible for them". With exception in the cases of speem donor, adoption etc.

C'mon pinky we both know that the most important thing in this world are The Sexual Needs of Men, right?

Because God forbid some men don't get to treat women like fuckbuckets then throw a strop when it goes wrong for them.

Everyone knows there's a lot more contraceptive options for women.

If a man has made it clear he doesn't want a child and a woman tricks him into having one, he shouldn't have to pay in my opinion.

I know women who have told their partners they're on contraceptive ( when really they aren't) and then pretend it's an accident. I've only seen that situation end well once out of many.

I'm sure if they were aware their partners weren't on contraceptive then they'd use condoms or abstain - but you're meant to trust the people you're with - so when they say they're on contraception - why would or should a man have to doubt them and ensure its double duo?

However - having sex and knowing neither is using contraceptive - both should pay as its a joint decision to have sex without precautions.

I feel there'd be a lot less ' accidents' if they brought out a pill for men - that they can take daily and stops their fertility.

Well said Pinky. Jesus, it's depressing enough that men like this exist, never mind that there are women who defend them.

'He made it clear that he did not want a child with her & she carried on, regardless'. As did he. Nobody forced him to keep putting his penis inside a woman with whom he didn't want a child.

'He said 'ive been sleeping with you for years, unprotected, and you never fell pregnant then'.' Has he never had basic sex education? I've known since I was a child that you can have unprotected sex a million times, but it only takes one time to result in a pregnancy.

'He pays maintenance but refuses to see this child that he did not want'. What a prize of a man.

Can you give us some statistics of men who have been 'tricked' into having babies they didn't want? Can anyone provide these stats? Doubt it. But lots of women seem to know someone who did this or who was 'tricked'.

So many 'tricked' and 'trapped' men. Usually the ones who've bailed on their kids, taken up with a new woman and tell her about the vindictive ex who 'tricked' him into babies.

This is going to be controversial, and I swear I'm not being goady, but here goes:

If we accept that a woman has the right to choose - and I do - then the decision as to whether or not to proceed with a pregnancy (planned or otherwise) rests entirely with her. Surely it would not be unreasonable for a woman to have the father of her child attend the first scan (or perhaps some other time before that) and confirm that he is prepared to take responsibility for the child. This could be 'presumed' in the case of a married couple.

In the event that the father does not wish to have the child, the mother still has the right to choose, but does so knowing that she does so without the support of the child's father.

Not ideal I know, but until we can fix the child maintenance system (this really ought to be a priority that mumsnet could drive) this might work.

So in your scenario a man could say 'if you go ahead with this I don't have to pay'.

No room for emotionally blackmailing anyone into abortion there is there?

Unlike you to post controversially Malice

'Because God forbid some men don't get to treat women like fuckbuckets then throw a strop when it goes wrong for them.' Well exactly, Lilac. Women are, after all, just a collection of orifices for men to stick their dicks in. Heaven forfend these men have to actually take any responsibility for what happens after they put their penis inside a woman. They can't be expected to know the basics of reproduction.

The right to choose with a man begins and ends at ejaculation. I have never had a condom split on me, ever.

I have however had serval men not want to use them and one where I said oh I'm on the pill btw and he replied oh good I forgot about that he would remembered if it was him getting pregnant I imagine

Lilac - when I say I know women who have tricked their partners or ex partners into having a child - that's came from the mouth of the women, not the men.

It seems like people don't want to admit that many women do, do that.
That's why many people know someone in that situation.

Children should be a joint decision, of course accidents happen but I can understand why some men feel tricked/ don't want to pay.

However I know you get men who bail even when the decision was joint - they should have to pay! Unfortunately you can't prove if a baby was planned or not I guess

So come on scientists! Get a pill invented for men! :D

£0-£7 per week
It definitely makes it worth spending 18+ years of your life bringing up a child for £0-£7 per week, I think not.

Any man who wants to have sex and is willing to just believe someone is on the pill is a fool, whether in a long-term relationship or not. If he chooses to put all the responsibility for contraception in the hands if his partner, he's a fool for not taking responsibility. Men are not children. If they genuinely don't want to be a father they should either wear a condom every single time they have sex, get a vasectomy or abstain from sex altogether.

In choosing to have sex there is always the risk of pregnancy. Always.

And as someone who's never been told by another woman that she's 'tricked' her partner into having a baby, no I don't believe that there are 'many women who do this'.

It's something trotted out by men and women time and again to put the responsibility of contraception and unplanned pregnancy solely on the shoulders of women.

I don't think a man should be forced into keeping and therefore paying for a baby.... Yes you both take risks and yes the only real 100% affective contraception is not to have sex but why does that only apply to men?
It's unfair as a man has no choice once it's done a woman can still choose to end the pregnancy.
What if a man really wanted this child and the woman didn't. Is it fair to force her into being a mother? Why is it fair to force a man into being a father?
It should be a joint decision and decided on fairly and I absolutely think that men should be able to end their rights of they did not want a child (even though that's really sad for the child)

But our contraception options are much more limited. I'd happily take a pill if I could. We've been promised this for years.

But your options aren't that limited, Malice. You can choose to use a condom. You can choose to not have PIV sex (it's not the only way to have sex, you know). Fuck, you make it sound like women have a delightful smorgasbord of lovely contraceptive options to choose from. Lets see, the pill - needing to take unnecessary medication on a daily basis. Implant - having something literally implanted in my arm. The coil (Mirena or copper), well my GP told me that as I haven't given birth, having a mirena coil inserted would likely hurt like fuck. Prescribed me two diazepam to get me through it. I couldn't do it in the end. Copper coil would have made my extremely heavy and painful periods even worse.

So if you are so envious of the contraceptive options that women have, belt away. Devise something similar for men. Then you can happily have injections, or have something embedded in your arm, or shoved up your penis.

It is actually illegal in this country to have an abortion for social reasons! It is only legal to abort if the pregnancy will affect the woman's mental health.
So those saying that a man should not have to pay if they have used contraception it has failed and he doesn't want to go ahead with the pregnancy are basically saying the woman is obliged to commit and an illegal act or pay for the child on her own for the rest of her life.

Also abortion legality aside. It is all very well saying the woman has the choice, the man doesn't. When it comes down to it, he isn't the once who has to go through the process of essentially ending a life. That is a big thing whatever your religion or lack of.

Badger- I do totally agree that abortion should be available (and used) if contraception fails. Or if for some reason it wasn't used. I'm very much pro choice, in all circumstances. It's far more responsible to have an abortion if a child isn't fully wanted., far kinder than just going ahead without putting the interests of a prospective child first. I feel huge amounts of sympathy for women in EIRE etc forced to go ahead with a pregnancy anyway.

clear he doesn't want a child and a woman tricks him into having one, he shouldn't have to pay in my opinion.

How would you say this should be enforced when it comes to child maintenance. Would the man's word of "well I said I didn't want kids" be enough?

Yet again, half the reason I'm a feminist: whenever a man slips up its the nearest woman's fault