to be glad that the Guardian is making enormous losses

[longfingernails]

www.pressgazette.co.uk/guardian-losses-reported-to-have-escalated-by-a-further-10m-to-68-7m-for-the-last-financial-year/

Great stuff. Their chatterati condescension, Islington moral vacuum and politically correct echo chamber has been a malignant blot upon our society for decades.

Let it wither upon the Viner.

"Immigration has had a terrible effect on some areas and a positive effect on others"

There are pockets where not enough National government action has been taken, but this is in in no way the majority of areas and therefore leads to the question why did areas of low immigration vote out on this issue too? People's perception it has had a terrible effect, mainly because the media has said so. In my native North East it is the number one issue, yet immigration has had little effect other than a Polish section of an aisle at Tesco.

Over all Immigration has been beneficial to the economy, and to our society, quoting areas like Page Hall is fine, untl you consider then that even the deprived areas of London voted in, Page Hall has less immigration and is less deprived than many of these areas. Also the Roma immigration into Page Hall is not your common experience is it? Good job citing rare exceptions there.

"Propping up the pension and tax deficit by importing more people just kicks the can down the road, but you can't do it forever."

An awful lot of EU immigrants are not here permanently, 75,000 or so left last year, and the year before that, and the year before that. Many plan to return to their own country after a period of time etc. However your points regarding the finite planet are accurate, but of course unless dealt with on a globally collaborative scale, cutting EU immigration to the UK ( which btw won't happen) will not effect much at all.

Oh and it does matter if they've paid their taxes, its quite important.

You know the surplus that we get from EU immigration, that's handy !

So the population just keeps going up forever, more roads, more houses, more factories, chop down the trees pave over the fields?
This isn't a sensible way for a species to live and prosper.
It's like quiet holiday resorts that people love so more hotels are built until people decide everything they love about it is ruined and then go to the next quiet resort and ruin that with the first resort irretrievably ruined.

someone in Cambridge who reaps the benefits of world class collaboration with colleagues from around the world.

And that collaboration may well produce drugs which save people's lives, or new medical treatments, or new technologies which benefit all of Society, not just the scientist in Cambridge.

Today the Sun ran a headline complaining that most EU immigrants can't be "booted out" when we leave the EU. Walking past a university colleague from the EU who saves children's lives every day, I felt ashamed that he had to see such a headline before going into surgery for a child whose parents may well want him "booted out". A significant fraction of our world leading research doctors in university hospitals are not British.

People on this thread want Remain voters to acknowledge that those who voted Leave for immigration had legitimate concerns. (Even Leave voters in areas where there are almost no immigrants and shortages in services and housing are caused by other reasons.) Ok, fair enough.

But those who voted Leave for immigration reasons should also acknowledge that relatively unrestricted movement of scientists and doctors in and out of our country, all around the world, is responsible for a huge amount of scientific, technological, medical and pharmaceutical progress. If you shut off such immigration (and indeed emigration) entirely, we would fall behind in these areas and this will affect everyone in Society.

People talk about points systems and controlled immigration but the current system for non-EU visas is complicated, expensive, time-consuming and generally set up to deter even the "exceptional talents" (Tier 1) and "highly skilled" (Tier 2) from coming. I think the UK should think very seriously about whether making such people (non-EU and EU after we leave) so unwelcome is actually in the best interests of anybody in this country.

"This was a thread on the Guardian which once again Small you've hijacked for your particularly nasty brand of soapbox ranting about ' why people thought it was better to leave the eu' you are a blight on a discussion forum"

Thanks for that, I've noticed you around too, however I didn't shape the conversation this way :) But thanks for yet another attack on me, play the man not the ball eh?

2Rebbeca, EU immigrants make up 4% of the population, and are often migrating and then replacing each other.

The total UK population rose 22% from 1980, do you think the EU is at fault for that?

In fact Soover, the reason the conversation went this way is because other posters began to blame the Guardian for the failure of the remain campaign, which I certainly don't think you can!

My first deletion I think we will just have to disagree on why I voted Leave, I do however agree with you that you can't blame the Guardian for the failure of the Remain campaign and moreover we need a varied press. I would be sad to see the Guardian close although I rarely read it I don't want to live in a press or media echo chamber.

Soover, I'm sure that many leave voters did so because of genuine reasons even though I disagree with them. However, I am very interested in why a sizeable group chose to vote on what were proved to be untruths, and for the other reasons I've outlined above.

In essence I feel that many people have been duped into voting for something that is against their own interests.

I think the problem is that your averadge person in some forgotten northern town doesn't really care where those drugs and scientific breakthroughs occur, to them it doesn't make a difference if they happen in the uk, that is one of the problems with the remain argument, I am guilty of it with extended family, I work in a very specialised IT field for a multinational whereas my extended family work driving vans in Norfolk or warehouse work in Lincolnshire.

Globalisation has had an affect on them, what with de-industrialisation and moving into a service sector economy, trying to pin the point on austerity and the current government is woefully missing the point that people have been abandoned by successive governments, just saying we need more infrastructure is missing the point, also as has been pointed out is finite, at some point there is a breaking point and you only have to see the nimby/anti gentrification attitude generally across the population to see a reluctance.

While the sun/mail and mirror are terrible papers I don't think the go to rhetoric that everyone who reads the mail and sun are just brainless sheep and not that there is some aspect of them reflecting public sentiment, there may be a feedback loop going on but that's just the same as any other news otutlet, I think the number of leave voters who did vote purely on immigration was relatively small (can't find the Ashcroft report as on phone) , but dragging it back to the op Tonybee has recently done an interesting article on Truckers which kind of highlights the mess the paper is in.

But voting out of the EU isn't going to help those who feel they have been abandoned because of globalisation/the switch to a service economy is it?

The infrastructure needed for example to accommodate 4% of the population is not going to be a massive drain on finite resources either, especially because as UCL pointed out removing all EU immigrants wouldn't work either because it would lead to a larger drop in funding than you would see a decrease in demand.

I still stand by my opinion that the Guardian is the best daily print paper.

I live in Scotland. The Scottish population was static between 1981 and 2001 but then rose in 2011 nearly all due to EU immigration.

Fox, please can you tell me your evidence for your statement that "all racists voted leave"?

Fox, please can you tell me your evidence for your statement that "all racists voted leave"?

Well it stands to reason doesn't, I don't think it needs any further explanation.

The Scottish Population in 1981 was 5,035,000, in 2011 it was 5,295,000, its about 5%, not exactly major is it? in nominal or % terms, in fact the Scottish population is made up of about 5% of EU countries other than home nations, and 3% of other UN countries, so immigration is lower in Scotland than it is in the rest of England.

I don't agree that it's the best paper, it's a good paper no doubt, I'm not surprised nor worried it's losing money, it has blind spots, hypocrisy and is just as agenda driven as the rest, the Tonybee article and today's news about home ownership falling is another blind spot, I said on this thread the other day that the guardian has been very hypocritical and very London centric with this issue (Buy to Let), it caters to a very niche subset, but promotes being the champion of the disenfranchised, just as long as the disenfranchised tow the same line.

As for your other point, voting out isn't going to help either, the thing is that it's got so shit what's to lose is what I was told, it's alright saying that the financial sector is bringing in X amount of taxes, they mean fuck all when people are snapping up terraced houses and pricing out the locals because it's a nice little investment pot, or it doesn't matter that some warehouse jobs are only advertised overseas or that if you don't speak polish you don't stand a chance of getting a job, or maybe it's because people living within the London commuter belt are hit by two sides of the same coin, you have gentrification pricing them out one way, or you have, such as the recent case in Wembley where you have circa 40 people living in a 5 bedroom house in Wembley.

Anecdotal evidence is only good if it promotes a certain narrative, it can be seen on MN, they haven't been listened to, the unfortunate thing is, that it's not just the politicians that haven't listened (across all stripes) it's the typical middle class guardian/telegraph reader

Missed this bit,

The infrastructure needed for example to accommodate 4% of the population is not going to be a massive drain on resources either

Well it depends doesn't it, unless your advocating limits then it could be a possible 4% every couple of decades, that is stretching a finite resource, or are you ignoring the current kickback on infrastructure projects such as HS2, airport expansions and general NIMBYism or just wanting to kick the can down the road.

Was the "It stands to reason" in answer to my question?

Of course, when you have organisations like the EDL, BNP and UKIP ( which as you will remember has had lots of councillors and members suspended for their derogatory remarks) backing leave it stands to reason.

Since unsubstantiated feelings are now a sound basis for policy decisions, 'it stands to reason' is a valid response to any question

There is no logic to that reply. Do you honestly believe there are no racists in the tory party? Don't you remember the racist campaign against Khan for London mayor? A lot of people involved in that were in the remain campaign.

Unsubstantiated feelings seems to be what everyone else keeps saying that people made their decisions on, or what we should pay attention to.

No I don't believe there are no racists in the Tory party, as I don't believe there aren't any in the Labour party either.

Yeah well somebody should have told the ardent remain supporter on Twitter about the "all the racists voted leave" thing, Because he was having a fine old time telling a Sikh his "turban must be wound too tight" for voting "wrong".

Seen pleanty of coon, Uncle Tom, Oreo, house Muslim used by remain/democracy/BLM supporters when having a go at non white people who missed the "the colour of your skin means you must have opinions according to the hive mind" memo. The silence is deafening in terms of being cut down by their own side when they say shit like that.

If I'd had a vote, I'd have voted remain. But fuck me, post result rather a lot of remainers have shown themselves up as deeply unlovely people.

Oh god I've never had or expressed sentiments like that!

Fox. So do you agree that there is just the tiniest smidgen of a possibility that there might somewhere have been a racist who voted remain?