to be glad that the Guardian is making enormous losses

[longfingernails]

www.pressgazette.co.uk/guardian-losses-reported-to-have-escalated-by-a-further-10m-to-68-7m-for-the-last-financial-year/

Great stuff. Their chatterati condescension, Islington moral vacuum and politically correct echo chamber has been a malignant blot upon our society for decades.

Let it wither upon the Viner.

Wrong, do you not feel that the leave campaign mainly focusing on immigration gave off this anti foreigner feeling? I certainly do !

The posters that Farage stood in front of and many other parts of the campaign certainly did. I certainly agree with this sentiment:

"This campaign has stirred up anti-migrant sentiment that used to be confined to outbursts from the far fringes of British politics."

In no way would I ever make the claim that all leave voters were racist/anti immigration, and in fact that claim only ever seems to be suggested by leave voters themselves, but I certainly feel that it was the main thrust of the campaign. Which does then give people who have these extreme opinions increased validation, which of course is in their own mind, but the campaign allowed it to come to the surface.

In no way would I ever make the claim that all leave voters were racist/anti immigration

Surely you don't believe that it is inherently racist to be opposed to uncontrolled immigration?

?????????

surely a statement saying that not all Leave voters are racist or anti immigration implies the sentence writer wishes to assert not all Leave voters are racist or anti immigration?

I was pondering the slash. It implies that "racist" and "anti immigration" are near-synonyms.

i wonder who is responsible for the massive spike in anti immigrant violence and abuse seen here www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/huge-rise-in-anti-immigrant-hate-crimes-caused-by-eu-referendum-police-chiefs-warn-a7130631.html

Well, I would take issue with the phrase "uncontrolled immigration" because of the connotations associated.

I also wouldn't say that it is wrong to have concerns about immigration. However, I would take issue when information from the Ipsos Mori poll shows that a large number of people vastly over estimate the number of immigrants and their impact on public services/housing costs etc. I take no problem with questioning these concerns and their origins.

oh, is that what a slash means, that the two items are conflated? how interesting, I do not think I have seen that before. Is that standard usage?

Well, I would take issue with the phrase "uncontrolled immigration" because of the connotations associated.

If you believe controls on immigration on racist, then it's hard to see what else is proposed. People who want to make the case for the benefits of immigration need to be crystal clear about what they are actually making the case for.

oh, is that what a slash means, that the two items are conflated?

Often, yes. "We are going to eat with with friends for lunch/dinner". "I like going to cinema/theatre/concerts". It's very often used to mean "here are some examples of the general sort of thing I am talking about". What do you think it means?

Small, if we are using the standard of winning newspaper of the year as a standard for unbiased problem free paper, then I presume you hold the daily mail and news of the world at the same level.

Fox. Yes some parts of the leave campaign were anti-immigrant. But to me there is a massive distinction between the leave campaign and most leave voters, and I think the size of the leave vote supports that. I believe many voted leave inspite of the leave campaign and the likes of Farage and BJ not because of them. Papers like the Guardian should have the intelligence and subtlety to understand that and not lump everyone with a different view to them on the EU in one big box. I had to stop reading the Guardian towards the end of the ref campaign as I just felt I was being personally maligned and told I must not be a good person. I do think the general atmosphere of insults and name-calling through the campaign has been very damaging. I agree that probably those committing racist attacks and making racist insults do not read the Guardian, but I can't believe that some people (on social media and the press, including the G) saying anyone voting leave must be racist/xenophobic wouldn't make some racists think that many people agreed with them but had just kept quiet about their views. It's good that we can have an intelligent good-natured disagreement on this thread☺

I was making the point lurker that the Guardian has won it more times than any other newspaper in the last decade or so, The Daily Mail has won it once.

"If you believe controls on immigration on racist, then it's hard to see what else is proposed."

I believe the phrase "unontrolled immigration" leads to other connotations being associated, in the vast majority these would be negative. I'd prefer to debate the technical term freedom of movement within the EU.

Don't know why my face came out like that. It was supposed to be

To many standards in there, but still, you work for the guardian, I would claim my £5 but you probably need it.

I'm not sure how I'm looking for problems, it could be, that me and even if we where to ignore this thread, millions of others can see problems with the paper, the fact that they have recently heavily targeted the American and Australian market and there is already a lot of scetisim, even from (shock horror) the left leaning forums and press, is a little disengenous to the claims that its some holy grail of journalism.

Trying to put a slant on things re tax avoidance that 'others do it, so what's the problem', isn't really justification is it? I almost believe that you would support the daily telegraph with that type of excuse...

I'd prefer to debate the technical term freedom of movement within the EU.

France, Germany and Italy imposed controls on A8 immigration.

The UK didn't.

As a result, at the time of A8 accession, around ten times the projected numbers arriving in this country, while France, Germany and Italy did not have similar issues.

Was the French, German and Italian position racist, in your view?

Had the UK imposed transitional control so that (a) the A8 economies were more in step with the of the EU prior to immigration controls being listed and (b) the UK would not have been the sole destination of such immigration for some years then the heat would have been taken out of the debate?

Wrong, Like I said I never ever saw this "all leave voters are racists" on the Guardian.

Your points about the leave vote are interesting, however I think that the leave campaign focusing on immigration, and the very anti immigrant feelings stirred by those leading it and the papers backing it led those people who have committed these crimes think that more people agreed with them than actually did, far, far more than any writer in the Guardian.

I also think that the leave campaign was very instrumental in the success of the leave victory, and that this campaign was conducted in a very disingenuous way but that's another thread.

And of course, even on page 21, no-one has yet mentioned Clark County. That went well, didn't it?

There are more Poles in France and Germany than there are here!

At the time of A8 immigration there was very low unemployment and lots of available jobs, wages rose between 2004 and 2008. It could maybe have been handled better, but I also am certain of the fact that immigration and its effects were over played by the right wing press, and the Conservative party at the time as it was politically expedient.

Clark County was ridiculous, but it was an attempt to stop Bush getting re elected, some things in the world may have been very different if it had succeed.

Here's one of the most ludicrous "remain" pieces from the Guardian:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/13/brexit-supporters-leave-vote-right

"Here were the two irreconcilable faces of Labour, eager young London graduates on the phone making scant headway with older traditional voters of Nottingham"

It's the word "graduates" I enjoyed most. In Polly's eyes, it's unimaginable that anyone in Nottingham might have a degree, or be "eager". They probably keep coal in their baths, too. The whole article is an endless sneer: everyone inside Zone 3 virtuous, eager, graduates. Everyone outside Zone 3, thick as mince lazy fuckers who are mostly racists.

I was making the point lurker that the Guardian has won it more times than any other newspaper in the last decade or so, The Daily Mail has won it once.

Yeah you was, and in true Guardian reporting you was selecting a favourable time line, since its inception the Mail has won it 5 times, we could now point out that an industry specific award means fuck all to public opinion re unbiased, agenda free reporting or we could just say it was pointless point scoring and the Mail should be held in the same regard?

Well as the Guardian has won it 5 times since its inception then I'd say it was a draw :)

It would seem, even in your example, that a slash serves the function of the word 'or' - unless you believe that the cinema is the theatre, or lunch is dinner, which of course you might well do but you would be wrong, of course

Thus, according to your examples, 'racist/anti immigration' means racist or anti immigration, and no conflation of the terms is implied.

Well as the the Mail has actually won it 6 times since its inception, I class that as a win

Whatever, Uncontrolled.

"The slash is also used as a shorter substitute for the conjunction "and" or inclusive or (i.e., A or B or both),[11] typically in situations where it fills the role of a hyphen or en dash. For example, the "Hemingway/Faulkner generation" might be used to discuss the era of the Lost Generation inclusive of the people around and affected by both Hemingway and Faulkner."

Cuboid, for a piece that was discussing the differences in the Labour vote I think that shows it. The young overwhelmingly voted to remain, as did graduates, the working class Labour vote overwhelmingly voted to leave, and as given here the biggest reason was immigration.