Trains: aggressive ticket inspectors

[ShesGottaTicket2Ride]

I know that the ticket inspectors at major stations have a tough time with people who want to 'ride for free'.. as well as drunks, injuries, bad pay etc...(and I am VERY sympathetic) .. HOWEVER, my dd just had a really difficult time with the local ticket inspectors (we are in a big city). She'd forgotten her 16-25 railcard (had never forgotten it before)... and was travelling a long distance. It's her fault (and we told her so) but the ticket inspectors apparently reduced her to tears while 5 other ticket chaps stood there staring. The chap in question told her that she would get a criminal record, stood intimidatingly close to her, wanted to know her height (?... what was THAT about), and apparently said: well I don't know how you'll get home!.....' it's just that dd is a timid sort and the treatment seemed a bit heavy-handed. I don't know if any other parents have similar stories (I would be interested to know). I was talking to the local police (on another matter) and mentioned this incident... kind police lady said: yes - we've been getting a lot of reports about this sort of behaviour... do let us know if you have a problem like this again...

I didn't think you did! Just one or two of the other posts were a bit snarky. I've had some lovely inspectors eg on a broken down train the inspector and the driver clubbed together to buy me a takeaway (starving and pregnant).

Ed1yourprofile Was that me? Same thing happened to me but they kept me on the train and refused to let me off at my stop - telling me they were "doing checks". One arsehole and 3 trainee arseholes. All male and very intimidating as I was sitting and alone in a corner feeling scared and vulnerable.

I was 18 and was writing to my MP about my Mum's housing problem. I tagged on something about the ticket inspectors and my MP took the train company to the cleaners. Got an apology etc, plus travel vouchers.

Sadly, it was in 1987!!!

I was on a train last Saturday night. The inspector/guard was unlocking the doors to let me off whilst trying to ring someone on his mobile. I told him he had no chance of a mobile signal in our village (station in the middle of nowhere). He said he was trying to ring British Transport Police as he had a passenger who claimed to have "lost their ticket" and when asked if it was an adult or childs ticket had replied "child". I suspect that the inspector had his doubts about that given the time of night and that it was more likely to be an excuse to try and play the system. Apparently the inspector was not allowed to take action if it is a child and had to leave it to BTP. I bet they get fed up with people trying it on - it is a line where often the train staff do not appear between stations and there are no ticket machines at many of the stations, so often easy to travel without paying quite innocently.

Sorry, but a fixed penalty notice (did she even get one or was she just refused travel?) is NOT a criminal record

Where does it say she got a fixed penalty notice, or was refused travel? The conductor said she was getting a criminal record, he is taking her to court.

Fixed penalty notice, by the way DOES how up in criminal record checks

Horrible bullying bastard. How brave is he reducing a young girl to tears in front of his pals.
If this were 10pm at night on a train full a 6ft tall 6ft wide football hooligans you wouldn't have seen a guard for love nor money

I use trains a lot as I don't drive and have family all over the place, I've always found ticket inspectors to be friendly and helpful tbh. I'm over 26 and not in the Southeast but I'm eligible for a disabled railcard so thankfully don't have to pay full fare, and I always keep it in my purse.

*Where does it say she got a fixed penalty notice, or was refused travel? The conductor said she was getting a criminal record, he is taking her to court.

Fixed penalty notice, by the way DOES how up in criminal record checks*

No, the standard procedure is to issue a penalty fare (£20) if someone is travelling with an incorrect ticket. The penalty fare does not show up on a DBS check and is not the same as having a criminal record. It's more like parking fines- they're not exactly anything to be worried about.

There is a criminal offence of fare evasion. However, the train company needs to prove deliberate intent to evade the fare and in this case where she has a railcard (but forgot it) I really cannot see a prosecution taking place because it would be highly unlikely to result in a conviction.

It's probably not sensible to put the fear of God into the OP about her poor daughter being prosecuted. Fare dodging prosecutions are ones like that banker who deliberately didn't touch in for a year and defrauded TFL of £25,000 or something. Not a girl who forgot her young persons railcard (although I can well imagine a nasty ticket inspector threatening that- doesn't mean it's going to happen).

I accidentally travelled on a 1 day out of date season ticket to work when I was 20. It was entirely my mistake but I was detained by three aggressive inspectors for 30 minutes threatening to take me to the police station. I was late for work and shocked as I didn't know what they wanted (was apologising, explaining it was paid for by work, offering to pay etc etc) but they just carried on 'detaining', aggressive, physically intimidating, threatening.

The conductor said she was getting a criminal record, he is taking her to court.

That isn't his decision. And in this case, the operator would be highly unlikely to prosecute and a court would be highly unlikely to convict. As another poster says, for the offence to be made out it requires intent, and that simply wouldn't fly in a case of a forgotten pass (provided it really was forgotten). Being on a train without a ticket is not a strict liability offence.

well, I hope not, but two of my friends have got criminal records for similar minor mistakes, and one was turned down for a university place because of it.

I don't know why some people get taken to court and some don't but I have suspected in the past that the ones that say sorry are the ones prosecuted, because they have , in effect, confessed.

I hope that doesn't happen to the OPs daughter, but it is silly to pretend it is unlikely

If every station had ticket barriers that always were staffed then genuine fare dodgers would never get on the trains in the first place. With all people who have reduced fares having an Oyster card or similar to go through the barriers. A much better solution than ticket inspectors, and even if 1 in 100 are a problem and have little control of their temper, it can scar the wrong person.

If every station had ticket barriers that always were staffed

Then about half of the stations in the country would have to be closed, run massively reduced services or double the fares.

genuine fare dodgers would never get on the trains in the first place

Several recent high-profile convictions involved gated stations.

A standard fraud ("an empty sandwich") is to commute using two tickets, possibly even two season tickets, one covering the journey from home to somewhere nearby, and another covering the journey to work from somewhere nearby. This works perfectly through gatelines.

With all people who have reduced fares having an Oyster card or similar to go through the barriers.

Leaving aside the cost issue, there are a whole stack of common frauds which this wouldn't stop. The obvious one is "in your gates only world, what stops me travelling using my mother's 60+ railcard or my daughter's 16-25?"

well, I hope not, but two of my friends have got criminal records for similar minor mistakes, and one was turned down for a university place because of it

Really? For not having the correct ticket on the train/forgetting a rail-card? With no aggravating circumstances? Two of your friends- on separate occasions? A bit suspicious about the uni rejecting them too because of it (unless for a vocational course where you need a DBS check). Even if they were convicted, it's a minor summary-only offence which would be spent pretty quickly.

Cuboidal - I'd never have thought of the empty sandwich trick! I'd make a terrible criminal!

My bugbear is bus ticket inspectors. They keep barking demands for my photocard at me (bear in mind I'm deaf so this takes a while until I've figured out who they are and what they're saying).

I don't have a photocard. Then they get right arsy and start wanting my details and making unintelligible threats.

After about 6 times of this I now know to point out that yes, my Oystercard has a Disabled Railcard loaded onto it, and if they were trained properly, they would know that a Disabled Railcard has no photo, so no, I do not have a photocard, and do not appreciated being threatened with court etc for having a perfectly valid ticket.

I'm still furious with the guy when I was a student, who made me pay for another ticket because the ticket office had sold me a single to London instead of a day return - which cost exactly the same amount!

On the plus side, when our family had to get train home after car broke down in a rural area (all the insurance counts for nothing if there are no locksmiths within 100 miles), a lovely ticket bloke clocked my hearing aids, confirmed they were from the NHS, and insisted on giving us the 1/3 off we'd have had with my railcard on the grounds I was clearly entitled to it.

I used to commute to Cricklewood which at the time was ungated. Once they had a few inspectors - the first half dozen people off the rush hour train beat them up and everyone else went past. Not an easy job.

I'd whip out my mobile and start filming if any ticket inspector started to get arsey with me about a genuine error (which could even transpire to be his/her error).

But then, I'm a lot older and more thrawn than your daughter.

I wonder do they get commission like the traffic wardens?

I don't think so Roseformeplease as it would have been slightly later (about 1991) and there was only one inspector.

I hope she did appeal it though as it was obviously an honest mistake and she didn't deserve to be treated that way.

Really? For not having the correct ticket on the train/forgetting a rail-card? With no aggravating circumstances? Two of your friends- on separate occasions? A bit suspicious about the uni rejecting them too because of it (unless for a vocational course where you need a DBS check)

yes, one around 8 years ago, and one earlier this year. Yes it was a vocational course. I've always felt it was because they admitted their mistake and said sorry, so they were easy to prosecute.

i once heard two bus inspectors talking together on the top of the bus. One said to the other he knew a good way of doubling his number of convictions, if a customer claims a bus driver had given the wrong information, then you prosecute the bus driver as well as the passenger.

it was obviously an honest mistake it is still a crime, even if it is a genuine mistake, no, there is absolutely no requirement to prove it was deliberate.

no, there is absolutely no requirement to prove it was deliberate

Yes, there is. That's exactly what you have to prove. We are talking about criminal prosecutions here, not the issuing of a fine by the conductor. It's not the conductor's decision to prosecute.

This is from the CPS website re fare evasion (you will see the clear reference to intent:

Section 5 Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (Stones 7-7043) is usually used for offences of fare evasion on the railways for:

travelling/attempting to travel on a railway without having previously paid the fare and with intent to avoid payment thereof; or
having paid the fare for a certain distance, knowingly and wilfully proceeding by train beyond that distance without previously paying the additional fare for the additional distance and with intent to avoid payment thereof or
having failed to pay the fare, giving in reply to a request from an officer of a railway company a false name and address.

Coming at it from another side.
I was once on a train when someone got caught without a ticket. She looked young and completely bewildered, and was quickly reduced to tears. She'd gone to buy a ticket and the ticket machine wasn't working apparently and needed to get to work, so had just hopped on.

Thought they were being a bit harsh on her until after she'd got off, and I heard the lady behind (who had got on at the same stop) remark that the ticket machines were working perfectly and she used that excuse regularly-and often got away with it. It was the third time that week-the first time the ticket inspector had said something like "don't worry, just make sure you get it next time", and the second time someone had offered to pay for the ticket for her.

I was coming home from a funeral late one night, and a group of drunk girls got on and started causing chaos. Sat down next to me and wouldn't leave me alone, then grabbed and yanked my arm so hard it dislocated my shoulder to try to prevent me from reaching the emergency button.

The train employee flatly refused to do anything, claimed he could not tell them to leave or even tell them to stop, and that my only option would be to get off at the next station (middle of nowhere) and go to whatever the nearest police station was.

On the other hand, I had a lovely experience with an inspector who allowed me to sit in first class due to lack of seats (as I'm disabled) and wrote me a sweet little note saying to stay in first class for the rest of the journey. I gave him some sweets I had with me when I got off.

It doesn't sound like much but it was a really beautiful moment.