AIBU to wonder why FGM is effectively legal?

[CuboidalSlipshoddy]

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/21/england-fgm-cases-recorded-2015-2016

5700 cases of Female Genital Mutilation the 2015–16.

43% took place between the ages of 5 and 9.

Not a single arrest, prosecution or conviction.

If a child aged 5 to 9 is a victim of genital mutilation, the parents are probably at fault, and should certainly be interviewed under caution with a view to prosecution. Crap about "multiculturalism" or "who are we to judge" are just saying that non-white children deserve lesser, and fewer, rights than white children.

Instead, we have a policy, enacted by doctors, nurses and social workers, of not pursuing such cases out of a completely misguided sense of "oh noes, we might be waycist".

That's assuming the whole community supports it. Mo Farah probably doesn't, I'm guessing, to judge from his wedding pictures.

Ok not whole communities. Massive parts of communities. Including those that look the other way.

No idea what Mo Farahs wedding photo has to do with anything Though.

Yes men to do need to be involved. T

Would you be including the UK in this?

No, because they are very often taken away on holiday to be mutilated.
So, even though the odd case may happen here, the majority is taking place in the home country.
It needs to be tackled at source, then the rest would follow.

Ban those countries from participating in world sporting events, until they can prove that FGM has been eradicated.
There are some top runners from places such as Somalia and Kenya, so this would hit them hard if sporting sanctions were put in place.

Is this a joke? Please tell me this is a joke

What an amazing lady:

thinkkindness.org/meet-josephine-kulea-true-living-hero/

However, I think we need (as someone previously mentioned) to tackle the men on this one.
Some of the best male athletes in the world come from the main FGM/Beading practicing countries. If the males thought that they wouldn't be able to compete internationally any more (sanctioned), until FGM was stamped out completely , it might make them stand up and take notice that this barbaric tradition has to stop.

This is where sport comes in.

Sport is an international language that everybody understands.

No idea what Mo Farahs wedding photo has to do with anything Though.

Bare shoulders. Head not covered. That's transgressive in many other ways apart from her not being (we presume, but it seems a reasonable assumption) mutilated as a child. Has the Somali community in the UK disowned him for these crimes? No, they have not. Are there probably a small hardcore who think him a traitor for "marrying out"? Almost certainly. So I don't think it is "Massive parts of communities", because aside from anything else a commonly cited reason for coming to the UK is precisely to escape these cultural issues.

That's one of the worst things that our engagement with "community leaders" has caused. People come to the UK from country X seeking a new life, one free of the pressures of conformity to cultural practices. Our response is to seek out the most conservative elements and present their views as normative.

Think about Muslims you know, for example. Now, think about "Muslim representatives" who are picked by government or the BBC to speak on "issues". I'll bet that the Muslims you know are less bearded, less male, younger and if female less veiled than the people presented in the media and in government as normative. That makes it much harder for progressive elements, because they are both blamed for things they don't believe in ("all Muslims...", "all Somalis..." on FGM, terrorism, etc) and if young and disempowered conservatives are presented to them as models to aspire to.

If there's discussion in the media about, for example, same sex marriage, headbangers like Andrea Minichiello Williams are not presented as being representatives of the white "community", and not even of being representative of Christians, and very few Christians actually share her lunatic views. She is openly mocked, and any debate involving her will have open-hearted Christians from accepting traditions as well.

When the topic at hand is something to do with non-Christian communities, the most appalling reactionaries are sought out and presented as though their views are mainstream (one might mention Anjem Choudary in this, but he's hardly the only one). Young people, perhaps reacting to their parents' conservatism, are only shown conservative models. It's like Richard Dawkins' trick of re-labelling Christianity as consisting only of hardline lunatics, and then dismissing anyone less unreasonable as "not a real Christian".

The vast majority of Somalis in the UK, like the vast majority of Muslims, want nothing of FGM, ISIS and book burning. A tiny minority do. It helps no-one, except that small minority, to paint them as normative. It makes us helpless (what can we do?), it makes us worry about the wrong things (how will uncut women find husbands? -- which leads to the appalling ideas of "minor" FGM being somehow doing them a favour) and it makes us give up the tools we have.

It is essentialising to believe that most people in any particular group share distasteful ideas, unless you have strong evidence to show it is true.

In some parts of the world, men are taking a stand against practice.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-36798807

To the extent that men have power in a particular community then they need to be part of the campaign.

If the males thought that they wouldn't be able to compete internationally any more (sanctioned), until FGM was stamped out completely

Aside from the colour of his skin and the cover of his passport, do you have the slightest reason to believe that Haile Gebrselassie was an enthusiast for genital mutilation?

And could you make your mind up about whether you think women are driving it or are innocent victims or something else? Because your proposed ban would also wipe out women's athletics, in which Kenyan women are extremely successful even if the doping situation is extremely dubious, but we can pass over that.

Aside from the colour of his skin and the cover of his passport, do you have the slightest reason to believe that Haile Gebrselassie was an enthusiast for genital mutilation?

That's the thing with Sanctions.
Not everybody deserves to suffer for the actions of a few.
But if the few are spoiling it for the many, then sometimes action is taken.

If the males thought that they wouldn't be able to compete internationally any more (sanctioned), until FGM was stamped out completely

I know you are well meaning, but seriously?

Do you have even the slightest hint of an understanding at what sort out country Somalia is? Have the decades of tribal-based civil war ripping apart the country even slightly registered on your radar?

They can't even agree on not killing each other over differences in culture and religious interpretation. And you think you wade in and say 'ah, but out of a country of millions of people living in grinding poverty, those 5 of you won't go to the olympics. Ahh, got you now'
And they are going to sit up and say 'shit, you are right. I know none of us can read or write, we haven't had a functioning government for decades, we have no healthcare system, no education system and there have been constant massacres of innocent civilians, but fuck you, you don't take away a theoretical right for a handful of people who I'm culturally opposed to to go to the olympics. Even if my people have been trying to murder those same people for years and years.'

FFS

Indeed, sparechange.

If the pressures that are somewhat effective against notional democracies worked in Somalia, it wouldn't have the problems in the first place.

It's an open question as to whether the sporting/cultural boycott of South Africa worked as much as some people argue (as Zhou Enlai said of the French Revolution, "it's too early to tell") but it's difficult to know where to begin on how apartheid South Africa is unlike a failed state like Somalia.

Apartheid South Africa was a racist state, obviously, but the white bit operated like a western democracy aside from the violent racism: the white government was elected by white voters, and those white voters at least in principle could be thought to be interested in rugby, cricket and popular beat combos. The size of the effect is a matter for debate, but the basic idea "deprived of international sport and music, your boer might decide to push his parliament to be a bit less repressive" is not on the face of it unreasonable. The people who were enforcing the violence (the white government) were elected by the people most affected by the boycott (white South Africans).

(It's a bit more complex than that, but let's not do "if Hugh and Miriam are OK with what Paul is doing, I'm OK with what Paul is doing" now).

Somalia isn't like that at all. The problem you want to eradicate isn't something the government does, it is at most something the government isn't bothered about. But in any event (a) the government is entirely failed and (b) the people your sanctions might impact have absolutely no influence over the government or the cultural problem anyway. And for the most conservative elements, who are the biggest problem, preventing women from appearing in athletics events would be a good thing.

So it's an entirely stupid idea. The people you want to affect wouldn't be affected, and couldn't care less about your "sanctions".

FGM happens all over the world, it's also not uncommon in middle east. There's an indigenous community in Colombia who do it (ie, not Muslim). I read an MSF blogs about a gal in Sierra Leone (western medic) being invited by the locals to go to an FGM ceremony. This was a celebratory community event. It's simplistic to think women are simply passive victims... many find it important in their identity, like this other blog entry explains. Challenging FGM is Huge. :(

I don't like Germaine Greer, but respect for cultural autonomy is the principle she was getting at when she supported FGM.

FGM is not simply a Muslim issue - it happens across communities

I think you aren't understanding the information you C+P from your LSCB there - it DOES NOT say 'go ahead and let them perform FGM' does it? I can assure you that girls ARE taken into care to protect them from FGM trust me!

The stuff you C+P is referring to working WITH families and communities to stop FGM not allowing families to do it! If you where working with a family and you thought they where going to take a child abroad for the purposes of FGM it would be a safeguarding issue and that child would be removed if that was the only way to protect her

It is NOT legal and not tolerated by SW

Ghosty, It isn't a muslim issue, in so far as it isn't ubiquitous to all or even most muslim countries and cultures
However the countries and cultures that practice it are overwhelmingly muslim and have all the patriarchal bullshit that comes with it
To deny this is to sail very close to the wind of making the problem worse out of fear of being accused of islamaphobia or racism. It is undeniably a problem that only happens within Muslim communities in the UK

Cultural autonomy is only a valid concept when it is well informed.
The case for FGM is predicated on lies, lies and more damned lies.
Not doing it makes girls promiscuous. It makes women infertile. Labia will grow until they are down to a woman's knees. Her babies will be stilborn. No one will marry her. She will make a bad wife.
To respect the cultural case for FGM is to accept all of these excuses as fact. The decision to perform FGM is made out of fear of false consequences for what will happen if it doesn't happen. Coming from a place of fear that the worst possible thing for a woman is not a life of pain, but not getting married.

Do you have even the slightest hint of an understanding at what sort out country Somalia is? Have the decades of tribal-based civil war ripping apart the country even slightly registered on your radar?

Probably more than you realise. So stop with the patronising.

They can't even agree on not killing each other over differences in culture and religious interpretation

As long as we keep making excuses under the 'guise' of culture, nothing will ever be sorted.
We need to stop banging on about culture.
If a 30/40/50 year old man is having sex with an 8 year old girl. It is wrong.
I don't give a shit about their culture.

There should be no excuse for children being exploited.

Frankly, you sound very ignorant and misinformed.

And for your information,
banning South Africa from taking part in sport, believe it or not, played a small part in a bigger picture - when it came to eventually bringing down apartheid.
So please don't dismiss my idea of using sport as a bartering tool.

as one example.

the people your sanctions might impact have absolutely no influence over the government or the cultural problem anyway.

Maybe. Maybe not.
But most governments are proud of achievements. There's an egotistical element at play.
Governments love their countries to excel.

Tackling the problem from a Sport angle was just a suggestion.

So it's an entirely stupid idea. The people you want to affect wouldn't be affected, and couldn't care less about your "sanctions".

So, what would you suggest?
Education?
How do you get through to a people who have treated women like shit (women are worth less than cows) for centuries, that they must suddenly change their ways and stop raping children?

To people who have jointed this thread late, this if what I'm referring to:

edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/05/11/kenya.children.beading/

It disgusts me that we turn a blind eye because it's 'culture'.
These men are no better than pedophiles.
Lets face it, they ARE pedophiles.

Appalled that this happens. No excuse. Very simple. If a child is found to have undergone FGM they should immediately be removed from parents by social services. Parents should be prosecuted for allowing this to happen. Children then sent to adoption. No exemptions.

I would consent as a white mother in an area with a huge immigrant population for all little girls aged 3 - 8 at school to be given a sensitive examination from a visiting school nurse once a year. Children have often had health checks in the UK - weight, height, the "nit" nurse, injections and a standard FGM check with a parent present would be fine. We have had local girls taking 30 minutes to urinate in schools because they had FGM.

Egypt is another bad country too. "Egypt has the region's highest total number of women that have undergone FGM (27.2 million), while Somalia has the highest percentage (prevalence) of FGM (98%)."

We do it all - midwives reporting it, posters at air ports, teachers and social workers on the ball about it and none of that ridiculous sensitive guidance quoted earlier on the thread. If they find a child has done it then at the least amassive fine imposed on the family and the younger daughters examined every 2 months by a social worker.

Maybe. Maybe not.
But most governments are proud of achievements. There's an egotistical element at play.
Governments love their countries to excel.

And what about where there isn't a government? Or hasn't been a functioning government for decades?
Seriously, you're going to have to let you utterly stupid idea go
It isn't relevant in this case for a multitude of reasons, and despite having the gall to accuse me of ignorance, you are showing yours more and more with each post

Sports sanctions may have played a small part in South Africa for the reasons PP stated upthread - those being sanctioned were those in a positio of political power to make changes.

The rural population of Somalia where FGM is ubiquitous won't even have heard of the olympics let alone give a shiny fucking shit about who is winning medals.
Gold star for effort for your suggestion though

Do you think it will change though as the perpetrators tend to stay in their communities and don't marry out of the culture so the cycle doesn't break.

Yes there must be severe penalties but with fines won't they plead poverty?

I suspect that business divestment might have had a tiny amount more to do with pressure on SA to give up on Apartheid, but yeah, sports sanctions, that'll sort everything out.

I linked to a BBC article above where so Maasai men are making it clear that the won't marry women who have undergone FGM. This may be one of the solutions. If FGM damages a girl's marriage prospects rather than enhances them, it loses some of its purpose and justification.
The next video shows a female elder strongly arguing the case for FGM. It is clearly very deeply ingrained in the culture.

Agencies are doing a lot, border control are talking to families as they fly out of the U.K, schools are involved in identifying risks, orders have been given to prevent it. NHS staff are receiving extra training on it.
The problem is how do you stop it when it happens in another country? When families are shunned as their daughter hasn't been cut? When the girls don't know their fate on these 'holidays' they can't tell anyone. It is about education, educating the families that it's not right, it's not needed. A lot of these cultures are very patriarchal so it needs to come from the men not to want or need this to happen. It will then follow that the women should not carry it out, so they will follow orders not to.
I saw a lady from an African tribe saying if it was up to her she would cut her 7 year old now, but the elders had stopped the practice. How sad that she thought it was acceptable despite knowing the problems of infection, dangerous births, problems menstruating, problems weeing.
It's complicated but the agencies are doing a lot.