AIBU to wonder why FGM is effectively legal?

[CuboidalSlipshoddy]

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/21/england-fgm-cases-recorded-2015-2016

5700 cases of Female Genital Mutilation the 2015–16.

43% took place between the ages of 5 and 9.

Not a single arrest, prosecution or conviction.

If a child aged 5 to 9 is a victim of genital mutilation, the parents are probably at fault, and should certainly be interviewed under caution with a view to prosecution. Crap about "multiculturalism" or "who are we to judge" are just saying that non-white children deserve lesser, and fewer, rights than white children.

Instead, we have a policy, enacted by doctors, nurses and social workers, of not pursuing such cases out of a completely misguided sense of "oh noes, we might be waycist".

I know that it is now an offence to send someone abroad to have it done and that is quite new.

The big issue is that lots of child deaths/neglect/abuse/being permanently disabled, don't result in a conviction.

Do we prosecute all Parents who allow FGM, but not all Parents who abuse their children?

If so, why, From a legal POV?

From another POV, it's so that people can and will come forward. We don't want to create a wall of silence, to protect a Parent, Family member etc.

Just to add that the report has left out that it has been identified that "Cutters" are now being bought over, which is easier than taking the Family to Africa etc.

There are issues around the sentences being over turned once the Perpetrator returns home, where Cultural practices are ignored.

It is not effectively legal. It is illegal.

The one case brought so far was a farce. Brought because the cps wanted to be seen to do something.

It is not easy though.

Schools are very aware. Teachers are primed to listen for any references to 'special holiday' or 'special ceremony' especially in girls aged 4-9. And especially just before the summer holiday.

But the people who do this do not advertise they are about to do it. And teachers (and even doctors) don't look at little girls genitals routinely. So it still passes under the radar.

It is horrific and illegal.

How would you stop it?

ButtonLoon, I am sure that the article I read last night said that of the 1000s of cases reported, the highest percentage were Somali women (girls), I am not saying they are the only nationality (its rife in Egypt), just the predominate minority in the UK

and this is where its gets very messy, as presumably:

• they are taken home to do this
• the "surgery" is performed
• and this is a woman's game, THIS IS KEY! any video and any report shows that its women that do it, women that hold the girl down and woman that normalise it

The 3 ideas that spring to mind in putting diplomatic pressure on Somalia to enforce the laws

Increased vigilance in schools where we know there are cultures that will do this

A UK education campaign targeted at the Mothers

""A UK education campaign targeted at the Mothers""

The education campaign is cross cultural. With many days set aside across the continents that this applies to. The (mainly female)Pupils put together projects in written and dance/music forms against FGM.

This is alongside other programs about HIV etc that debunk the myth that FGM can prevent disease etc.

I do think that it also fits in with the wider issue of Women being second class citizens.

The U.K. Can't continue to support Women being seen as inferior, based on religion or culture.

yeah we cant do anything in Oman, Somalia and Egypt can! we can only educate the mothers that if they take their little girl back to get mutilated by the village "midwife"- they WILL get prosecuted here

As usual, it is a grand ideal that in reality comes way down the UK's list of priorities.

There are many stories of migrant women who are battling to stay in the UK because they know that if they get sent back to their home country the only way that they can avoid destitution will be to turn to their families for support, which will be conditional on getting their daughters circumcised.

The rights and wrongs of why these women are in the UK without immigration status are given far higher prominence than the threat of harm to their children. It is a real battle to get the UK Home Office and the courts to take the threat to the girls at all seriously.

Even the agencies officially tasked with protecting girls from FGM are heavily influenced by our anti-immigrant culture at the expense of non-British girls and women.

but thistle, that's a separate issues. many women are here, legally, and actively choose to take a vacation to their homeland and cut their girls

they make the effort to travel home and do it, knowing its illegal

we can only educate the mothers that if they take their little girl back to get mutilated by the village "midwife"- they WILL get prosecuted here

People learn by watching reality. And the reality is that if they take their little girl back to get mutilated by the village "midwife"- they WILL NOT get prosecuted here. They know this because no-one is prosecuted. Ever.

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/police-manchester-airport-warn-passengers-11642485.amp?client=safari#

Putting up posters is much less work than actually pursing and prosecuting perpetrators. Three years and not a single arrest: they're either remarkably effective posters, or they're clear evidence that nothing of value is being done.

What's the point of a poster in a departure lounge? Do the police think the people taking their children to be abused (let's stop with the euphemisms, eh?) don't know what they're travelling in order to do?

While the act of FGM is organised and overseen by mothers, the cultural pressure to have it done will come as much, if not more, from fathers.

It is seen as a measure to prevent promiscuity and make a girl more 'marry-able'. Men in communities with a tradition of FGM are conditioned this think that uncut women are dirty, slags, not suitable wives and so the vicious circle prevails when they have their own daughters

If you look at how appallingly patriarchal, to the point of abusive, many of these communities are, you cannot overlook the power many of these men have over their wives and therefore how powerless the wives are to stand up to their husband's demands for FGM

I live in an area with a large Somali population and it is completely usual to see little girls in primary school uniforms wearing a hijab, or girls barely older than toddlers in the park on hot hot days in long black trousers, tunics and headscarves.

There is a constant and pervasive idea that girls are highly sexual and sexualised from an early age, and just like dressing them in training burquas, FGM is part of 'protecting them from themselves'. It is utterly ingrained in their culture and day to day lives.

It isn't as simple as applying pressure to mothers to stop the cutting. Why are schools so tolerant of the idea of a 4 year old being sexualised that they issue standard uniform hijabs? Because passively tolerating that is tolerating a culture that sees FGM in the same light.

spare has it right.

Fgm is the produce of a culture that where women don't have any power. One of the reasons they are reluctant to prosecute parents, is that mothers often do it because they have to. Not because they choose to. I can also imagine many of the women will end up taking the full blame claiming their husbands didn't know they were going to do it.

The women and girls have no power. That needs to be tackled. Because while that is still going on fgm can never be stopped.

How they tackle it, I don't know. I would love to hear the OPs ideas.

One of the reasons they are reluctant to prosecute parents, is that mothers often do it because they have to.

Plenty of women who are found guilty of child abuse are obviously in the power of abusive men. That doesn't stop them from being jailed.

It's the racism of low expectations: that black women lack moral agency, and are forced to do things in which they have no choice.

It's the racism of low expectations: that black women lack moral agency, and are forced to do things in which they have no choice.

That is massively oversimplistic. It is not black women, it is some women, predominantly east and north african women.

They don't lack moral agency, they are conditioned from an incredibly early age that men are superior thinkers and make the decisions. They believe they are the mere chattals and possessions of their husbands. They believe their moral agency can be overridden by their husband at any moment, and this view is backed up by their families and communities.

They subscribe to a religious framework that has enshrined that women are lesser beings than men and must submit to their will, and that their children are technically the possession of the men.
Their moral agency only 'counts' when it matches the belief of their husband.
The shame of being shunned by a community will often far outweigh the shame of the threat of a prosecution. It wouldn't surprise me if there was a degree of 'martyrdom complex' about those who are investigated by the authorities for the crime of upholding their beliefs and customs, and the sick fuckers in positions of authority in these communities celebrate their 'bravery', thus perpetuating the abuse.

How do you address it? God knows. I think you start by recognising that putting a 5 year old in a hijab is the same spectrum as FGM and not fucking tolerating it. I'm sure the concern is that girls not allowed to wear a hijab at school simply won't come to school at all, but the answer to that isn't to tolerate a view that says primary age girls are sexualised and need to be dressed 'modestly' to be in public.

It is not subscribing to the bullshit that when these women then grow up to wear full burkhas, they are empowered and in charge of their own identity and self-image, and recognising it for the controlling patriarchal bullshit it is.

Plenty of women who are found guilty of child abuse are obviously in the power of abusive men. That doesn't stop them from being jailed.

You are missing the point. The culture is that women have no power. They would need to lock most of the community up to stop FGM.

I think you start by recognising that putting a 5 year old in a hijab is the same spectrum as FGM and not fucking tolerating it.

Quite. But we do tolerate it, don't we?

God knows. I think you start by recognising that putting a 5 year old in a hijab is the same spectrum as FGM and not fucking tolerating it.

I agree. But 'banning the burka' campaigns are often labelled racist and don't garner much support.

Does forcing a culture change (through the law) really gangs a culture? Or will it cause further problems with those already feeling marginalised.

I am not saying it's ok and we should ignore it. I just genuinely have no idea what the best way to tackle it, is.

They would need to lock most of the community up to stop FGM.

That's assuming the whole community supports it. Mo Farah probably doesn't, I'm guessing, to judge from his wedding pictures.

What's happened in my city is that councils have ended up deeply engaged with "Community Leaders" who are older, without exception male and without exception conservative. Those "community leaders" are then permitted to speak for their "community", as an alternative to actually engaging with actual people. That makes women and young people yet further disempowered, because the council (who control schools, health policy) are much more concerned about the "leaders" than the actual people.

A good test to see how this particular piece of malevolence works is to ask yourself "who is the community leader that the council consults with about my area"? If you are white and middle class the answer is "maybe my councillor, but actually no-one, they just engage directly". The "community leader" is like colonialists doing deals with "tribal headmen". And it's impossible to have this discussion without mentioning postal voting and other Biradari corruption.

I'm a huge fan of Salma Yaqoob, for all her failings (she is horrifyingly wrong about some things, but her heart is in absolutely the right place), and she has written very strong pieces about both FGM and the ways in which progressive women in conservative communities are silenced both by the community and by councils. Rather than assuming that elderly men are more "authentic" and "honest", we should engage with younger, more progressive elements in those communities. It's essentialising to assume "they" all think the same, but if we never speak to young women, how will we ever know?

This is, oddly enough, a campaign that really would be helped by men.

No, hear me out.

The mothers cut their daughters so they are marriageable within their community. The alternative is ostracisation and shunning and causing a scene and loss of face and all that jazz, so yeah - hard to fix.

So let's go to the guys. They stand up and say - 'We do not want cut wives'. We want our wives healthy and not in pain and not in danger. If the menfolk were to openly refuse and openly condemn the practise, it would no longer mean that cut women were desirable. And in fact this has already taken place. There are areas where men's groups have stood up and said 'Look, this kind of sucks, can we not?' but there are many places where it is a female-driven act of 'cleanliness' and nothing something men are demanding. I've read reports that modern men of those cultures are not fans, given the initial logistical difficulties and then the childbirth risks. The more outspoken they are, the better - more antiFGM voices need to be heard to drown out the supporters.

Chinese foot-binding was ended within a generation. The mothers probably didn't want to do it but they felt they had no choice if the ostracisation and marriageability of their daughters was at stake. It took both men and women to openly condemn the practise for it to happen - women, do not bind, and men, do not marry the bound.

The whole community needs to condemn it, loud, proud and out in the open. It can't just be a few mutterings.

Chinese foot-binding was ended within a generation.

There is a long way yet to go, but the position of women in our society has changed beyond recognition since the second world war. Why do we assume that "culture" amongst people who aren't white is entirely immutable. It is, as I say, the racism of low expectations.

Ban those countries from participating in world sporting events, until they can prove that FGM has been eradicated.
There are some top runners from places such as Somalia and Kenya, so this would hit them hard if sporting sanctions were put in place.

Sport Talks. where very often other means fails

Ban those countries from participating in world sporting events, until they can prove that FGM has been eradicated.

Would you be including the UK in this?

If you think FGM is bad enough, has anybody ever heard of a practice called Beading?

www.samburugirls.foundation/issues/beading/

Disturbing to think that men who are the equivalent ofJimmy Saville or Rolf Harris are being allowed to participate in the London Marathon and other sporting events.

Why do we make allowances?