dilemma about DH and the rest of my life

[MonicaLewinskisFlange]

So, DH is and always has been verbally abusive, aggressive and angry all the time. He is also quite lazy and selfish. He has poor impulse control. I suspect some form of adhd, personality disorder and childhood trauma. We have been married a long time and have DC. Everyone will no doubt tell me to LTB which I am feeling that I want to do. After having kept the family unit together for so long, I just don't know if I can go on any more. My love for him is almost depleted, as I feel so victimised and alone. He doesn't do much to help with house and kids and moans about anything he does do. He is constantly bickering with me and older DS, is grumpy and miserable. The tension is awful.

We had a big row recently after he lost his temper with teen DS and shouted and swore at him in a fit of rage, making toddler DS very scared. I feel I have done a crap job at protecting DC from this. We talked about him leaving but no decision was made. He was not in a good place mentally after this convo.

Anyway, DH agreed to go to gp and was referred to anger management therapy. The course will last several months and he is willing to try it.

My dilemma is, should I act on my feelings now and suggest we separate, but that would risk him chucking in the therapy before it has begun because he won't see the point. He needs to go to it to sort out his head, and to be a better person and father, regardless of whether we are still together. I worry about him having unsupervised access to little DS if he doesn't get his anger under control.

Even if he can get through his mental issues and anger problems with therapy, my head tells me he will still be lazy and selfish. I feel like a single parent a lot of the time, so know I could cope without him. I do still love him, just not the same way.

"It's not manipulative. He just cannot control his impulses"

Sorry but I cannot believe you actually said that Monica. so if his impulse was to hit people or drink drive or rape people would you still be making this same excuse for him?

of course he can control his impulses, hes a bloody adult. he needs to take responsibility for what he says and does.

You are not responsible for him just because you married him. he has made you think and feel this. not straightaway but over a period of many years.

if he doesn't do this to other people like his family or work colleagues then that is because he is choosing not to do it then and he is controlling his urges. this proves that he can exercise control WHEN HE WANTS TO. and when he wants to isn't with you and your children.

This is abuse. abuse of you and your children. you don't want to use that word because it offends your sensibilities. what you thought you were getting when you got married isn't this and it takes time to realise that and realise that you need to move on.

its really revealing. Your teen has had the perfect teacher. shout and scream and you get your own way.

who on earth has led you to believe that your children will be put into foster care if you leave an abusive partner and take them to live somewhere else? ah, let me guess - your DH. social services would be more likely to intervene if you stayed than if you left and showed that you were trying to remove them from this horrible situation.

all I have read so far in your responses to other posts is excuse after excuse as to why you shouldn't take responsibility and take some action. You don't have time, you chose him so should live with your choice and so on and on. Your DH isn't ever going to take responsibility for these outbursts so it has to be down to you.

go ahead. keep excusing his behaviour. it is never ever going to stop. or alternatively, start making a plan for you and your family that does not include him. if he takes it as a jolt when you leave and starts counselling and it is successful, then great consider taking him back. You have the time, nothing is more important than getting your self esteem back and your children back on track. Don't read OP, do.

He CAN control his impulses.
He doesn't want to - its a devise he has used effectively for years with his family. But he can control his impulses in public, or supermarket or at work and with his colleagues. Why is that?

OP, I have spent many years working with both the perpetrators and the victims of abuse and have seen the impact that such behaviour can have on children and young people first hand.

Unless your DH is also verbally and emotionally abusive to his friends, colleagues, random people in the street etc. then he is perfectly capable of 'managing' his anger, hence why he lets it out only in the privacy of the home when he is with you and DC. This is why AM is not clinically indicated for cases of Domestic Abuse (and from what you've written, your DH is abusive whether he has hit you or not) because all it does is enable the abuser to be even more controlled, more calculated, and often their abusive behaviour can escalate as a result.

AM will not make an emotionally abusive man less abusive, it will not resolve (or even touch on) the childhood trauma that you suspect and it certainly won't make him less "lazy" or "selfish". They will look at very basic strategies (such as breathing exercises, challenging angry thoughts and educating themselves about the physical effects anger has on he body) and it will be entirely up to your DH how and if he chooses to use them.

This idea of "staying but mentally checking out" of the relationship really, really worries me. Whilst it might seem helpful to you to make this distinction in your mind, your DC's cannot do the same. They will still be living in a volatile, traumatising and frightening situation. Nothing will have changed for them simply because you've decided to think about your own situation in a different way. I'm sorry to be blunt but the fact that you "feel different" is irrelevant when your children are still being emotionally abused. Removing them from the situation is the only way to reduce the impact of their Fathers abusive behaviour on their mental health, their education, their future relationships etc. In my experience, growing up with an emotionally abusive parent is every bit as damaging to a child as living with physical abuse and, no matter how loving and nurturing you are as a Mother (and it's clear that you are), you cannot truly protect your DC unless you get them out.

He needs to do the anger management course for himself and the people he loves, because he is ruining his own life and theirs. If he doesn't realise that I don't think he will benefit from the course and if he does realise that, he will do it anyone.

I think you might as well leave while the going is good. Maybe you could look into what you can do to put a limit on his access to your children, like getting social services involved or at least your doctor.

Yorkshapudding says everything that needs to be said imo. And certainly as someone who didn't get out in time - I now have the horrible realisation, and by extension, the horrible guilt, of knowing that dd's late teenage years were utterly awful and traumatic for her and has affected her mental health as well as her ability to know what the important elements that make for a healthy, loving relationship consist of. She doesn't trust her own judgement, is very anxious and has low self esteem, and has at times been incredibly unhappy within relationships. It's something I will never ever be able to forgive myself for. And no matter how much I am there for her now, I divorced way too late to protect her mental health. If nothing else, I hope I could at least be an example of what the consequences of inaction might be :(

"He has never revealed this side of himself to my family, to the general public or work, except a much more controlled repressed version."
"He just cannot control his impulses."

These two comments directly contradict each other. Can you see that? You explain that he can control himself with others... but not with you. He might not be able to control his emotions, but he can control how he expresses them and how he behaves. He is taking his anger out on you and your children. And you are letting him do it. You are even making excuses for him by saying that he can't help it. He can.

"I feel responsible for him"
You are not responsible for him. You can't help him or fix him. Only he can do that. However, you are responsible for yourself, and most importantly, your children. As PPs have said, you are endangering their emotional (and possible physical) well being by staying with him.

"Quitelikely5" This isn't about you Monica........believe it or not!!

Reality check time. Yes, absolutely. I'm struggling with competing priorities for my children: broken home vs stable home, verbally abusive home with mum there to intervene vs access to dad alone who is still prone to anger outbursts and no mum there. I don't deny my own feelings have influenced my inaction in leaving him (or choice to stay) for so many years. For which I feel guilty . I came from a broken home with no dad around and I always wanted my kids to have their dad. Too bad I chose one who was not as good as I wanted for them.

dailymaillazytwats
Very few people are able to change and often the abusive behaviour can be deeply entrenched, that it can be a lifetime's job to address, even for those who are deeply committed to changing.

You are right. Deeply entrenched. It's not a quick fix. His first session was good he says. They are giving him "tools". Also saying the same things I have been saying for eons, but he believes it when it comes from someone else.


Freeman batch mummymeister anotheremma thanks for the straight talking. I am an enabler. And I keep making excuses. For him. And for me. I feel pathetic. I'm ground down and made ill by all this, but I've got to find the emotional strength to act. FFS I'm so angry with myself .

yorkshapudding thank you for sharing your experience. I have said the same to myself before. I somehow have thought for a long time that us splitting up would screw up our kids more than us staying together. And good times inbetween bad make it not so bad overall. I feel like a fucking selfish moron.

Sorry that last comment was for dailymail

yorkshapudding the checkIng out suggestion was temporary while I plan the exit.

atenco I don't see the need to get SS involved. The foster care comment was misunderstood by that poster

You are NOT a fucking selfish moron. Often it's becomes almost impossible to see things clearly, as they actually are and to be so ground down, depressed/anxious, that you can't see a way out or realise there even is one. And even if you do want to go, to just not be able to make that push because your ability to make sound decisions becomes more and more diminished as time goes by.

But the thing is you started this thread. You know you and your kids deserve better and you can get out and all begin to heal. If your H is abusive to his kids then it may well be that access is supervised/restricted/prohibited until he is able to show he is able to act appropriately around them.

I left when the situation blew up beyond anything I could ever have imagined happening. If I had started a thread with the strange, unbelievable situations that made me run for the hills after years of inaction, I'd be accused of trolling without a doubt. You don't have to wait for things get any worse to have a reason to leave. Just the belief that it is what you and your children need and deserve. Not sure how old your eldest is but mine was 22 and had started uni when the shit truly hit the fan. If I'd left even a few years earlier I'd have spared her the worst of the trauma.

I also believed leaving would screw dd up more than leaving, because things weren't 'that bad'. So I stayed and things really became 'that bad'. Abusive, nasty men with a lifetime of unresolved issues behind them, rarely change unless they are totally committed to doing so. Even then there's a lifetime of work ahead to understand and help themselves and those around them. Bloody well done for having the courage to start this thread. I hope you find the strength to do what you want to do.

Thank you for being so supportive dailymaillazyfuckers

I'm probably swimming against the tide but here goes.

My DH was also verbally abusive and had anger issues. The early years were pretty much fine, shit started at around 10 years. After the proverbial straw broke my back, I took the children and went to my parent's. I sat him down the next day and told him that if he didn't get help we were done. D.O.N.E., done! I told him that I had never said that to him before and he better believe I wasn't going to need to say it again. He knew I meant it and had the income and family support to walk away with the children and never look back. It really scared the shit out of him, the thought of losing his family.

He made the appointment right away. We both went to counseling. Of course, he thought at the time that I would be told by the counselor that I was 'being unreasonable'. Boy, was he wrong! Long story short, there were things we both needed to change, and a lot of work for him to do on his temper. That was 20 years ago. We're still together and life has been, and is, good.

The main thing is that your DH will have to be sincere about wanting to change. No bullshit lip service.

You stay or go, whatever feels right to you. I'm just giving you another viewpoint to consider.

monica its a trite old saying but very true - every journey does begin with the first step. of course you feel ground down. anyone in your situation would feel exactly the same. of course you don't want your family to break up. again no one goes into marriage or the commitment to having children with someone unless they honestly believe it is going to last. Don't get angry with yourself. this just wastes your precious energy. start channelling that energy into all of the positive things that you can do starting tomorrow to resolve this situation.

the idea of staying together no matter what for the kids has been well and truly debunked over the years. show your kids what a strong, empowered woman looks like.

if you really are genuinely worried about being separated and your husband having the children unsupervised then you need some proper legal advice to see what you can put into place to stop this happening. Doesn't this speak volumes to you? do you think everyone else thinks this about their partner - that they wouldn't leave them alone with their kids?

I think you need to go and get some good legal advice, start getting your ducks in a row with regards to finances (as in making sure you know how much there is an where) and you need to do this quickly. You are only human and the best you can do is your best.

someone gave me a brilliant piece of advice recently. I think I might make it into a poster "Nothing changes if nothing changes"

acrossthepond I'm so glad to hear of your happy story. I think I've been banging on about how his behaviour is abusive and unacceptable for so long, that he a)doesn't believe it's true, and b) is sick of hearing it and c) is totally desensitized to it . Interesting that he believes his therapist when they say it. All my past ultimatums have meant nothing because he tries to be nice for a while and then slips back to his old ways.

mummymeister thanks for the advice. I love the phrase you suggest. Might make that my phone screensaver.

He contained himself 3 times today when he felt like blowing up. Using techniques from his therapist. We still bickered a bit (about perennial unresolved scabs we just keep picking at. They won't go away while DH does nothing about them) but no massive outburst. In fact I was stroppy and oh so tired today. . Feel like I have no joy left at the moment . Like when he tries to cuddle me (rare), I'm like an ironing board. And he keeps asking me what's wrong.

Of course he is trying to be nice to you! Why? Because he can sense you're withdrawal oh but believe me just as soon as you start to relax he will turn on you.

You say you are concerned about him seeing the children alone but what happens is when he leaves

You tell your children in an she appropriate way that daddies behaviour was wrong and you did not want that for yourself and your children

Soon your children will vote with their feet, they will not want to see daddy and if he wants to go to court your children's views will be taken into account.

Don't let his shit speak frighten you, he's a bully and his words are designed to keep you under control I.e to keep you married/make you afraid to leave

If you don't get out your children will become like him or marry someone like him. And on it goes.

Age not she **

I don't think you're pathetic or a selfish moron. I think his abuse has ground you down and you've finally had enough. Please try not to be angry with yourself - be angry with him! And channel that anger into positive action.

FWIW I think this scenario is very different from the one that AcrossThePond describes. I don't think he is going to change, sadly. But if he did, would you be able to move past the memories of his abuse, and love him? Or would you be staying "for the children"? (I think that's a myth and children are much happier when their parent - or at least the primary parent - is happy and stable.)

Are you frightened of him? Because, if someone like that tried to cuddle me after behaving like that, I would also be stiff as an ironing board.

I would say 'That won't work after just one session - you've got a lot of ground to make up before I could fancy you again'. But you didn't - why?

He knows the game is up so he is trying to ingratiate himself with you. its clearly a tactic that has worked before so he is doing it again. as in "see look I have changed so can we go back to normal now please"

you need some time apart to get your own head around things. so what he has on one day contained his anger. one swallow doesn't make a summer. don't fall for this. plan some time away so that you can make the important decisions you need to make with a very clear head.

If he tried to maintain control, then it's just suppression, internalisation and bottling it up more for next explosion
sounds to me as if he gets some kind of kick out of bottling it up and then letting it out in whatever way is most effective and gratifying for him

I think the treatment is just theatre to keep you sweet so he can carry on with the domination act that gives him such a buzz