To think this is a breach of confidentiality

[DefinitelyNotMe]

DP and I are atheist. BIL is a vicar. Normally, it's all fine, we get on very well, often look after the other's DC etc.

I have MH issues, and recently had an episode while the DC and I were on holiday with MIL. Nothing major, the DC would not have been aware but I know MIL was worried about it.

BIL recently mentioned in passing to DP that he had discussed the episode with MIL and asked people to pray for us. DP was a bit but I am really upset. Is it really ok to share my medical history with people I don't know without asking me?

I don't know what he's told these people or who they are, but I thought he would have some kind of ethic around confidentiality and he knows if he had asked me I would probably have said no

If he was a health care professional or social worker I wouldn't expect him discussing my "case". If he wants to pray for me, fine, but him asking others makes me really uncomfortable, especially as he wasn't even there when the episode happened. I'm worried about going to see him now as people drop in all the time and I don't know what they think they know about me . Am I over reacting? Or was this really out of order?

As someone said above, it's normally just your name read out in front of the congregation in the intercessional prayers with no details, eg 'Pray for Definitely. People's names are in those lists for all sorts of reasons, from taking an exam to bereavement. It's likely he hasn't shared specifics with anyone. Why don't you ask him and clarify you don't want your health details shared at the same time? I don't think talking to MIL is at all wrong though.

Oh, and OP - YANBU. I don't think he should even be saying 'pray for Definitely' in front of his congregation, esp if they are local to you.

I bet as a vicar he gets lots of people asking them to pray for him. That is fine. It's not okay to start bringing up your name, in a way that suggests you have ishoos of some sort, in public, when you didn't ask him to and when he knows you are not part of his faith.

There is a really good essay by Daniel Dennett called 'Thank goodness!' on the topic of praying for atheists.

Thing is mumtomaxwell I am really trying not to criticise BIL's religious views, but it also doesn't make sense to me. If there is a God, would He not help us if no-one prayed? Do you get more help if more people pray, like a divine X factor?! If it doesn't make a difference why do it?

Sorry, I don't mean to pick on you, I genuinely don't understand.

We believe that God knows what people need from Him

Well, if that's true, he's slacking, I've been waiting for a pony since I was six.

I really dislike people "praying" for me. Possibly because in the past it's been used in a really passive aggressive way, possibly because I think if you want to help someone, then actually help them. Talk to them, offer to babysit, make a casserole, give them a hug. Yapping at thin air does fuck all for me, thanks all the same, so let's not pretend you're being benevolent.

We aren't local but only half an hour away so we go there a lot, and DC sometimes go to church activities with BIL.

Welsh - totally agree. To be fair BIL does help us a lot in practical terms, although we help him just as much!

Just something to consider, but if you had the flu or a broken leg would you have been so upset about it being discussed in this way? I know it's far easier said than done but we all need to start de-stigmatising MH issues. I've been there and done that and I believe a major factor in my recovery was when I was supported to stop feeling I had something to be ashamed or embarrassed about. This not only helped improve my feeling of self-worth but also made it much easier for me to talk openly and honestly with my friends and family.

Your BIL may not have handled this the way you think he should but, rather than focusing negatively on that, why not see the positive in the fact that he obviously cares about you? You could also talk to him about about it which might go a long way towards putting it to bed rather than having it simmering darkly in your mind. He's family, he cares about you and he is almost certainly a compassionate person due to his vocation so it should not be an uncomfortable conversation.

He's completely overstepped IMO

I have family who live in another country, are deeply religious and are lovingly horrified at my life and so they pray for me. As they should frankly - if they love me and believe their mad doctrine, they absolutely should be praying for my soul that I don't have

But for your BIL to share your name and invite other people to pray for you is a fucking cheek. He needs to be told. Agree completely that he is a twat of the highest order.

Stopfucking - yes 'well-meant and insensitive' - you are spot on.

Non religious friend was touched by the number of people who told her they'd pray for her prem baby (who did well).

I'm religious definitely, but I tend to think intercessional prayers are generally for the benefit of the person requesting rather than the target (if they are different people) because it gives them a sense of being able to help in a situation where they're often helpless.

I don't think praying is some kind of mystical ordering service as some people on here have suggested. Often it's more a way of meditating on problems yourself rather than actually 'speaking to God'.

You don't know what was said. I think before people sumise bil is a twat, you should verify if he used your name and or health details.

That is interesting Bill in that I do think it is more about BIL than me. And actually I resent that. BIL wasn't there. If he wants to reflect and pray for me, fine, but why ask others when you know it's private and the recipient doesn't follow that religion?

BIL is compassionate. And I agree about de stigmatising MH issues. But it should be my choice as to when and how I fight that fight, not his.

I think you just need to talk to him and say exactly that. That you would prefer if he prayed for you privately rather than asking other people to or adding you to intercessional prayers. That's a perfectly reasonable request and no reflection on your feelings about his religious convictions.

He's not a health professional etc though, and he doesn't have any particular duty of confidentiality towards you.

It's really common in church communities to pray for others (anyone & everyone). It's kind of assumed that everyone has rough times, at some point, this is nothing to be ashamed about, and part of the praying is to give strength to the people around you to be as supportive as they can be, too. In my experience, discussion of the details of what someone has gone thru is kept very minimal and personal privacy is highly respected.

So yeah I think you are probably being oversensitive unless you know someone has spilled your gory personal details, but that is very unlikely.

ps: I am a raging humanist, but there are religious folk in my family.

I'd be focussed on the fact that someone obviously told him. Rarely are details given unless the person is asked if they can be shared so it would be something like "I would like to pray for a family member who is struggling/finding it difficult to cope./ or even something as simple as who has family issues etc.

As to praying for someone who is atheist - well it happens all the time - Christians praying for Syria, for Jewish People etc. It is well meant and their way of expressing concern and a desire for the situation to change. I wouldn't read anything into it.

I would seriously be asking who actually told you of the issues and what did they say etc. And then address the issue with them - in this instance it seems was MIL

Definitely not me I've been in a similar situation and it made me furious. My mother in law is a reverend and after my miscarriage she rang me to tell me she had asked her congregation to pray for me. I lost it with her! I'm atheist, she knows I'm atheist. I shouted at her and told her I don't believe in her insert swear word God so why the hell was she breaking my confidentiality and asking people to pray about the baby that her precious God didn't save? I told her I don't want her praying for me EVER as I find it offensive! Then hung up seems you are handling it rather better than I did!

No usual advice really, just wanted to tell you that your feelings are justified....

I don't think that your BIL praying for you or asking members of the congreagtions to pray for you is that unusual.
My MIL would do that and she knows too that I'm not a church follower.
But she will do so out of compasssion and wanting to help because she is convinced that praying will help (me, Dh or the dcs). I might not agree with that but tbh does it really matter? It might not have any effect on me at all or the power of their prayers might help me, who knows. But it's not going to be harmful.
And if he thinks that it's his prayers that made the difference, well, let him think that. I'm sure you will know in yourself whether this is the case or not!

The issue about WHAT he has said to other people is another issue imo. For me, it's more about making him aware that you don't want to have anyone aware of your health and that you don't like him discussing your priavte life/health with everyone. Nothing to do with religion.
It will be hard one because really how can you stop someone from your family being really worried about you and wanting to talk about it to others (friends, acquaintances or even random people). I'm sure you do, I know I do. That's why your MIL talked to him about what had happened on hols and probably why he talked about you to other people.
What you can do is put some sort of limits of what you are happy to share, eg I'm happy for you to tell people I've been unwell but not why. Or I'm happy for you to say I've had the flu but not that I've had MH etc...

You do need to ascertain the facts. Ask him a straight question - what exactly has he said about you, to whom, and were you named or otherwise identified (SIL, family member). Insist on a straight answer before you allow the conversation to develop, at all.

If you have been named or otherwise identified, to people who could possibly know you - whether or not a health issue was referred to - I would be absolutely fucking livid, in your situation. I would make VERY clear to him that in future he WILL respect my privacy and my right to a private life.

(You could, if true, point out that anxiety, or just uncertainty and social discomfort, caused by knowing that others know more about you than you'd like and may be wondering, or asking you, what the problem is, is likely to make your MH problems worse not better).

Crucially, he is not your vicar, you are not part of his church community, or even of the wider church family.

I think it's normal if you're part of a church community to be prayed for in hard times 'our friend x, our sister y, at this difficult time' etc. But that's ok because it is a social and spiritual community you've opted to become part of and share yourself with, to an extent.

If he's hard to talk to, interrupts and tells you why he's right, instead of listening actively and giving straight answers, I'd set out your concern in a brief, polite letter to him.

If he odd share any info about your specific condition I'd be writing a letter of complaint to his manager. But, he's your BIL, so that's not necessarily what you should do.

If he wanted to pray for MIL and her difficulty in coping with difficult times, and she is up for that, then fine, if it's kept vague.

Personally I would feel exactly the same if it was diabetes, or a bereavement, rather than MH because the point is that my private life may be my family's business by default but it is not his congregation's business.

If he was well-intentioned (rather than self-serving, which is quite possible) then he acted stupidly and needs to reflect.

At my church there is a prayer list included in the intercessions every week. People can put forward a name for the list - of a friend or relation who is anything from a bit out of sorts to terminally ill. The congregation only knows the name of the person they're praying for - not their problem. This list is included in the newsletter which is published online each week. Some years ago, when I was on the list, an ex-friend of mine (ex for horrible horrible reasons) who lives on the other side of the world, apparently Googled my name (?) and came up with my inclusion on this list. She emailed my priest demanding details and my address. ( I have a very unusual name, so unlikely to be anyone else).
My priest asked me what I wanted him to do and I insisted I was NC with her and wanted to remain so. So he wrote politely back to her and said that under the Data Protection Act and also because of his priestly confidentiality he could not tell her. She wrote back accusing him of being unChristian. He replied that she was asking him to not only break the law but ignore his spiritual obligations. He also told her to get over herself.
So it could well be that even if BIL mentioned your name in a church service, there is absolutely no evidence that he broke confidentiality about your MH problems. You could just have had a bad cold or a poorly elbow.
Please don't stress yourself.

That's awful Fruit, sorry for your loss

I am going to speak to him and find out what was said and the context. And I will reiterate praying for me, fine. Asking others to pray, not so much.

I would not be happy about this, partly about confidentiality, but more importantly I think it is inappropriate to pray for someone who is an atheist. I am an atheist and I don't spend time wishing theists saw the error of their ways through an intervention of reason. When someone tells me they will pray to their God to help me I feel like saying "Reason save you" back.

By sharing her name or identity (SIL, family member), if he did this, he was inviting questions and speculation - instigating gossip.

People may well ask OP or her MIL if she's ok, in a way that makes her wonder how much they know, what speculation-fuelled nonsense they imagine they know, or put her in an awkward position where she may find it difficult to avoid telling them more than she'd have wished.

She lives close to these people, sees them regularly and they see - and gossip amongst - each other. They are not one person in isolatin, safely half a world away.

Sorry OP, I feel as though I'm making this worse but also imagine that these might be the sort of concerns that are making you cross.

Establishing facts really is essential here.

I can understand why you're upset - it's horrible to feel people have been talking about you. Especially people that you feel you may have contact with and you don't know what they know. Depending on the nature of your condition I'm guessing this loss of control of information could have a negative impact on your MH.

I'm a carer for my eldest DS who is Autistic. He had a massive rant at me about a support group I go to, he doesn't want me talking about him. His mental health impacts me in a big way because he's my son and my families world pretty much revolve around meeting his needs.

I need to be able to discuss the impact his MH has on the family and seek relief from it. The support group is about me, not him. Maybe MIL church discussion is about her need not yours?

Your needs are also very important. But to look at your needs from this situation are they to feel like you're in control, to feel that your personal information is not being shared and that strangers and discussing and judging you?

To ensure that your needs are met could you contact BIL and MIL and say that the knowledge you've been prayed for has made you feel vulnerable and explain why. If you can have a frank discussion about your condition and the realities of it and how they could help - how it could work to communicate that could be beneficial to all. I like email because it's easier to get out all you want to say and edit it until it's polite and clear. You could also seek clarification about exactly what has been said and this may well put your mind at ease - whatever has been said and to whom will then be fact rather than speculation.

No one chooses to have a MH condition, nobody chooses to have a physical illness such as a cancer or a broken limb. These things have an impact on those around us who care for/ about us. MH is more stigmatised than some conditions and where as if someone has a broken arm others can help by doing practical things when someone has a MH crisis or even a MH wobble it's really hard for people to offer practical support. That feeling of uselessness is hard to process.