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Cowboys and Indians.....offensive?

293 replies

mrgrouper · 06/07/2016 09:45

Yesterday was the teachers strike, so I took my son to Gulliver's World in Warrington. Gulliver's world has hardly been updated since the 1980s, however I like this because it has a retro feel to it and reminds me of when I went there as a child. Most of the signage is from the eighties.
Anyhow there was a couple there who were clearly unimpressed by its dated appearance. We were in the Wild West part of the park and there is a large sign that says Cowboys and Indians. The woman started pointing and said she could not believe in 2016 they would have such a politically incorrect sign.
I was a bit surprised. Is Cowboys and Indians now racist and offensive? It is the first I have heard of this.

OP posts:
badtime · 06/07/2016 16:51

Bertrand, 'First Nations' is really only used in Canada. It is not used much in the US, but I don't think it is offensive there (or anywhere else - some people use it to refer to any indigenous minority peoples e.g. Maori, Sami, Indigenous Australians).

sorenofthejnaii · 06/07/2016 16:52

eden

But when you live in the USA or Australia, you can see the issues. You hear the people, you see the effect of colonisation. You ask questions

Maybe you should ask why people in the UK don't know about the colonisation of America and the effect on the people who lived there. Maybe you should ask why people in the UK don't know about the stolen generation in Australia. Why they don't know about the health efffects on the native people?

EvansOvalPies · 06/07/2016 16:53

I'm sure not many people would know much about my countries history

I'd be willing to bet you'd actually be quite surprised.
Ask someone from Africa about the appalling contribution the UK made to the slave trade in this country and the subsequent role William Wilberforce played in its abolition.

Ask anyone in the world about the Suffrage movement in the UK.

As well as the many other atrocities Britain committed throughout the world (including that of the US and Australia).

I'm pretty sure

Birdsgottafly · 06/07/2016 16:55

""Actually the suggestion that not knowing about the extermination of practically an entire race of people practically in living memory is a "generational thing" is incredibly depressing.........""

I'm part Native American, so I've got an extensive knowledge of that genocide and the oppression.

Although my interest is WW2 and recently the history of Europe (and other countries). I've only, last year discovered the full extent of the Armenian Genocide and Progroms.

I've also looked into the outbreak of Spanish Flu (thanks to an episode of Upstairs Downstairs and my youngest DD, 18 but with LDs, asking me about it).

Before that, I'd had an interest in SA, as my Father is from there and the Boer War, I've only recently come across pictures of the concentration camps, set up by the British, that were no different than those set up by the Nazis. It makes me view the Lord Kitchener posters differently.

We should be learning the Worlds history, as we go along, but that's not everyone's interest.

I agree that you can't know the details of everything. You should, however have an overview, which understands how people were oppressed and why the language/terminology is now offensive. History was written to suit a white agenda, at the time. There were other agendas, running alongside. It helped everyone accept and go along with "the natural order".

'Cowboys and Indians' should have died out, like Gollywogs, who sadly haven't and are still sold in gift shops.

SamWheat · 06/07/2016 16:57

But you don't stop learning when you leave school. Or you shouldn't, clearly some people do

I don't, if you're referring to me as one of those. I never stop learning, and find this thread fascinating.
However much you Shock at this thread, you seriously can't be expected to know everything about everything historical, and I'm betting all my money which is not a lot that you don't know everything either.
I've self taught myself about Rosa Parks, and also apartheid, as two examples off the top of my head, but never the whole 'story' behind the Cowboys and Indians.
Just not got round to it yet. Doesn't mean people don't know anything just because they don't know the same things as you.
WITHOUT googling, could you tell me all about the invasion of the Vikings? All about the sinking of the Titanic, and who eventually came to the rescue of the stricken ship?
The Tudors?
Even if you smugly say yes, you can, I bet there's a few areas of history you're unintentionally ignorant on.

TeenAndTween · 06/07/2016 16:58

I hope everyone on this thread who is bemoaning lack of knowledge of American 19th Century history also know and can apply BODMAS in maths. I am constantly amazed how often that come up in random threads and so many posters can't, even though it is primary level learning.

EvansOvalPies · 06/07/2016 16:58

Sorry - don't now why my post cut out at 'Pretty sure' - and now I can't remember what I was going to say. It was probably incredibly profound, take my word for it Wink

sorenofthejnaii · 06/07/2016 16:59

History was written to suit a white agenda, at the time

Probably still true. The Middle East and the partition of India are still very relevant today - and something the UK has a lot to answer for.

As is the history of Ireland - which is closer to home

BertrandRussell · 06/07/2016 17:00

As British people we should at least have some idea about the massacres that members of our families might have been involved in! Where did many of the colonists of America and Australia, for example, come from?

TowerRavenSeven · 06/07/2016 17:01

I live in the Western US and Cowboys and Indians is considered offensive here.

sorenofthejnaii · 06/07/2016 17:03

I've done a lot of travelling through Asia - and it is interesting to see how other countries see the UK.

Going to Lucknow and seeing a cannon which was used to murder Indians - rebels / freedom fighters / terrorists (insert the word you think appropriate) by attaching them with ropes and firing a cannon ball through them. Great Britain was not painted in a good light there.

History is very different when seen through different countries eyes.

LordyMe · 06/07/2016 17:03

I have lived in a lot of different countries and I've worked out that the best way to deal with terminology of naming various groups of people is to avoid mentioning anything. Wink

EvansOvalPies · 06/07/2016 17:04

I don't think anyone is expecting everyone to know all the ins and outs of all aspects of all history. It is simply most befuddling that some people claim to not know anything about the facts that Native American Indians were oppressed by the White People and that White People took their land. This is common knowledge, surely, and does not need to be taught in schools.

All of the intricacies are irrelevant, in any genre of history. The simple facts remain, and I am puzzled that this seems to be unknown by vast swathes of people.

sorenofthejnaii · 06/07/2016 17:05

As British people we should at least have some idea about the massacres that members of our families might have been involved in

I have this feeling our family wealth is derived from the slave trade. And probably from the exploitation of mill workers as well.

sorenofthejnaii · 06/07/2016 17:07

This is common knowledge, surely, and does not need to be taught in schools

Is it though? You know it. I know it. I am often surprised what people don't know. But I don't blame people for not knowing things.

BertrandRussell · 06/07/2016 17:15

"But I don't blame people for not knowing things"

Actually, some things I do blame people for not knowing........
Not the details- but the broad brush. At least enough to know the background to a Disney film....

MistressMerryWeather · 06/07/2016 17:25

I can't believe some of the attitudes on this thread.

Save your disdain for the people who know what started when Columbus sailed the ocean blue but still choose to celebrate him as a hero who discovered The New World.

I think the interest people have shown in learning what happened is great. The snobbish attitudes to those who had no idea is more embarrassing than not knowing in the first place.

Why not be informative rather than judgmental? You'll do far more good that way.

MistressMerryWeather · 06/07/2016 17:32

Believe it or not, Bertrand you are showing more ignorance than the people who you are trying to accuse of it.

In a perfect world, everyone would be brought up to appreciate history and want to further their knowledge but it doesn't come easily to every person.

You should not blame people for not knowing something, especially when they show an interest in learning about it.

BertrandRussell · 06/07/2016 17:36

"Believe it or not, Bertrand you are showing more ignorance than the people who you are trying to accuse of it"
Mistress- I'm talking about stuff there are Disney films about!

MistressMerryWeather · 06/07/2016 17:45

What's your point?

Why does it matter if it was a Disney film that sparked someone's interest in who Cricky Columbus truly was or this thread?

sorenofthejnaii · 06/07/2016 17:47

I'm talking about stuff there are Disney films about

I haven't seen Pocohantas - does the Disney film 'Disnify' the story?

Obviously Hollywood has a history of portraying history from certain points of view.

BertrandRussell · 06/07/2016 17:51

My point is that I am not expecting people to have huge detailed knowledge. But I am shocked at people not even having very basic knowledge of huge events that happened not very long ago in a place a significant number of the population of this country has been to!

Coatgate · 06/07/2016 17:54

There is only one person on this thread who has claimed no knowledge.

sorenofthejnaii · 06/07/2016 17:55

But I am shocked at people not even having very basic knowledge of huge events that happened not very long ago in a place a significant number of the population of this country has been to

Well - this is the question. I get shocked when I do pub quizzes and the fact that people who I consider well educated and worldly don't know certain things. I think I have quite a good general knowledge - but I do think there are things people should know.

But there are people who just aren't interested in certain things and have never come across it.

quencher · 06/07/2016 17:57

I actually don't blame people who don't know certain words can be wrong or why somethings happened. I know I don't know lots of the things that appear on Mn or in the news. I do however take interest in finding out more.

I'm talking about stuff there are Disney films about! We all know that Disney has sanitised or sanitises it's movies. Most people know Pocahontas (real name matoaka ) as a coming of age young woman who fell in love with young English dude named John smith. When in actual fact she was 11.
They sexualised her and her story on who she is and the history.

During Matoaka’s childhood, the English had arrived in the ‘New World’ and clashes between the colonizers and the Native Americans were commonplace. In 1607, John Smith, an Admiral of New England and an English soldier and explorer, arrived in Virginia by ship, with a group of about 100 other settlers. One day, while exploring the Chickahominy River, John Smith was captured by one of Powhatan’s hunting parties. He was brought to Powhatan's home at Werowocomoco. The accounts of what happened next vary from source to source. In John Smith’s original writing, he told of having a large feast, after which he sat and spoke with Chief Powhatan. In a letter written to Queen Anne, John Smith told the story of Matoaka throwing herself across his body to protect him from execution at the hands of Powhatan. It is believed that John Smith was a pretentious man who told this lie to gain notoriety. In the Disney version, Matoaka/Pocahontas is depicted as a young woman when she saved John Smith, but by his accounts, she was only a 10-year-old child when these events occurred, and therefore highly unlikely that there was any romance between them.

Matoaka often visited the settlement at Jamestown to help the settlers during times when food was in short supply. On 13 thApril, 1613 AD, during one of these visits, Samuel Argall captured Matoaka to ransom her for some English prisoners held by her father. She was held hostage at Jamestown for over a year. During her captivity, tobacco planter John Rolfe took a ‘special interest’ in the attractive young prisoner, and he eventually conditioned her release upon her agreeing to marry him. Matoaka was baptized ‘Rebecca’ and in 1614, she was married John Rolfe - the first recorded marriage between a European and a Native American.
Two years later, John Rolfe took Matoaka to England to use her in a propaganda campaign to support the colony of Virginia, propping her up as the symbol of hope for peace and good relations between the English and the Native Americans. ‘Rebecca’ was seen an example of a civilized ‘savage’ and Rolfe was praised for his accomplishment in bringing Christianity to the ‘heathen tribes’.

While in England, Matoaka ran into John Smith. She refused to speak with him, turning her head and fleeing from his presence – a far cry from the undying love between the two as portrayed in the Disney movie. In 1617, the Rolfe family boarded a ship to return to Virginia. However, Matoaka would not complete this journey home. She became gravely ill – theories range from smallpox, pneumonia, or tuberculosis, to her having been poisoned – and she was taken off the ship at Gravesend where she died on March 21, 1617. It is believed she was 21 years old when she died. Sadly, there were no fairy tale endings for Matoaka.