To think it's normal for women to not get married or have children?

[Owllady]

For whatever reason
Or
No reason at all!

I know loads of women, through choice or not who haven't had children or married, have had a career or haven't. Why do the media make such a deal out of it?

Yes, it's normal. The media are just on it because they're worried that there is not enough cannon fodder for the series of wars they have planned...all due to those selfish women wanting economic stability of course...not because all the crap they do leads people to question whether bringing children into the world is a wise decision.

Bill im childfree by choice but its pretty rare where i live. Im a working class social housing tenant. When i was younger i saw some of the girls i was at school with have kids quite early in life and it looked like a life of drudgery. There is still no equality in this and women are expected to do and pay for the bulk of childcare. I just didnt want to do it.
And even if you do have a supportive partner the rest of society can cause a problem. I saw a post on the Relationships board from an MNer who was called into a school to be asked why the DC were late every time her DH brought them in

Owllady Thu 30-Jun-16 21:46:10
"And I'm really pissed off that women on here who are single and can't/don't want children have been treated like bloody meat by fucking men"

Eh? Do tell.

is it that childfree women are a safe fuck cos they will make damn sure they dont get pregnant

"Childfree" is a phrase I loathe. I'm hearing it more and more these days.

Saying "I'm ChildFree" is equally as pretentious as saying "I'm a BabyWearer" or "I'm a creative" or "I'm a yummy mummy".

Nobody cares what you do or don't do, as long as you're not a total wanker about it.

I work in a field with very extroverted, networking creative types (not creatives ) and I'm one of the few who's married with a child. It's also predominantly women.

I never think anything of it, other than how I have to factor in childcare for work related stuff. They don't.

Conversely, my sister, who is single and has no kids, works with a lot of married family types in a corporate office and she feels like an outsider.

It seems like women can never win. If you're single, why? If you're dating, why aren't you married? If you are married, when will you have kids? How many?

My DD has told me she's going to live in an apartment with her best friend and they'll have five cats. So that's that.

I think too many women buy into the illusion we're fed by the media and literature about what marriage and children will be like.

Well, as a 30 year old single, childless woman I can verify that it really seems to bother some people. In my group of friends and colleagues I know lots of people who don't want children but I only know one other woman in her 30s who is single and childless by choice rather than circumstance.

My family made a big deal about it for a long time but I think they're mostly over it now. My colleagues used to comment (in a nice way) but now just know my horses take up most of my time outside of work and seem ok with this as an alternative. Why people care at all what I do/don't do when it doesn't affect anyone else in any way is beyond me.

Yup, Cao.

Being childfree isn't statistically normal, but 25% of women in the UK now don't have kids by 45, and it's climbing.

I think there are way too many crap men - or, rather, men who don't treat women well. As a starry-eyed young feminist, I thought independence would make the chaps smarten up their act, as women no longer 'needed' a man, but that seems ... rather slow in happening.

And I married an arsehole anyway! Made that mistake twice and learned my lesson. I did feel a kind of pressure to be coupled up. It wasn't overt, but it was there, and it affected me.

No-one would dare ask me now if I want to "meet someone". Even my mother's packed it in

Non commital, I totally agree
It seems like women can never win. If you're single, why? If you're dating, why aren't you married? If you are married, when will you have kids? How many?
Exactly that^^

Your DD idea

It should be seen as normal. There is so much pressure on women to see marriage and children as the life they should aspire to. I don't ever want children or a DH/DW. I openly admit that I'm not cut out to be a mother or wife, and I'm perfectly fine with that decision. :)

Women are just judged whatever they do, while men can do far more without raising eyebrows. Since having kids I'm more understanding and supportive of being child free through choice. It's much harder to have a relationship and career when you have kids, as well as having less money and freedom. I suspect I'd have been happier without kids although I don't regret having them. I find it harder to understand people who have larger families than no kids, it's just so exhausting and relentless.

I do suspect some of my child free friends would consider kids if circumstances were better - the biggest barrier being finding a decent man who is willing to commit. Having kids is a bigger risk to a woman and more likely to impact her negatively, while men rarely change career to accommodate childcare or are left holding the baby when their partner can't deal with it anymore.

I don't think the phrase 'child free' is pretentious at all- it's used in place of the word 'childless' because of the implication of there being a lack of something in the word 'less' (like homeless, hopeless, fearless, careless). it kind of proves the point about having children being seen as the 'norm' that those who don't have deviate from. so many people prefer the term child free as it's much more positive.

I'm married but child free, as is my husband- but guess which one of us gets five times the intrusive questioning??

I have about an equal number of single child free male and female friends, and all that I want is for them to be happy on the ways that are right for them. I get a bit fed up with other people handwringing over whe they're going to 'settle down' (urgh). Yanbu, op, for something so common and usual people don't half still get their knickers in a twist about it!

YANBU in the slightest, it's all about choice. I agree with the PP, child free is far better terminology than child less. Paints a far better picture in the same way that bachelor is far nicer a word than spinster

I'm 35 and only one of my female friends is married with kids. The rest of us are all childless, some with partners and some not. So in my circle it's rare to have children!

'i think too many women buy into the illusion we're fed by the media and literature about what marriage and children will be like.'

I agree with this so much. I think a lot of women get married and become mothers expecting some kind of beautiful fairytale because that's the way it's marketed by large parts of the media. We need to see much more positive representation of single childfree living so it becomes seen as just as 'normal' a choice

'Childfree' is not a pretentious term - it's a way of making clear that you don't feel that there's anything missing from your life

I am absolutely dreading all the articles and comments that there will no doubt be about Theresa May not having children and whether that's relevant to her career.. I am feeling pre-emptively angry about it! (Tbh it hadn't even crossed my mind until someone said they didn't like her because she was "too old"... A man that age running for PM would not be an issue I'm sure). Anyway, I think it's not the most common path but certainly not unusual. About half of people at my work in their late 30s and 40s are without a long term partner or children, but I don't think London is that representative.

It doesn't seem popular on MN and people get indignant but there is the obvious biological imperative. Women's bodies can grow babies and most women will have a child or children and many have a strong biological and social desire to reproduce. Men also have this desire but women are clearly biologically the most invested with pregnancy and breastfeeding. I don't think it's outrageous that people have a natural expectation that a woman will be interested in having a child at some point in their lives.

I think there can be just as much pressure on woman to not "waste" their university education or work experience by having children and staying at home with them. I know so many women who dreaded having children or were scared that their lives would be over once they had children. Children are often portrayed as a burden and motherhood as overwhelming.

I don't think it's outrageous that people have a natural expectation that a woman will be interested in having a child at some point in their lives

Two things about this. First, the phrase "natural expectation" sounds lovely, only it positions one choice as superior, doesn't it? The converse of "natural" is "unnatural", so by saying that, it can sound as if you mean not wanting or having children is unnatural.

Secondly, of course people can expect other people, other women to do this thing or that thing, and of course they can do that as much as they like. It's when they feel the urge to share that wisdom with childfree women that the problem arises. You wouldn't believe some of the things that have been said to me on this topic, from everyone from friends to medical professionals, to complete strangers.

Actually there's a third thing as well! It's profoundly gendered and I think this tells us it's more about socialisation that biology - aren't men "biologically programmed" to want to spread their seed? Why don't they get the same level of grief if they don't comply?

People talking about biological imperatives when it comes to behaviour always tend to approach things from one direction.

Here is the thing that I think is true... how can I (mis)quote biology to back me up?

They are never simply looking at biology and trying to unbiasedly observe the consequences.

Thank you Selkie for pointing out that saying something is "natural" is simply a way of hedging calling something else "unnatural".

Another thing about "natural" is that it's often equated to "good". Quite a lot of things are natural, like dying in childbirth aka natural wastage. Or not living over 35. Or being eaten by tigers. We kind of like to avoid nature when it doesn't suit us. Had I left it to Nature I'd very likely have had a dozen or so babies, not all of whom would have survived (and aren't we frowned upon if we have more than our 2.5?). Also one may point out that infertility is natural to some people although chosen by others. It's bloody crass and insensitive to probe into which applies if the person doesn't volunteer the information.

can you give an example of the media making such a deal out of it?

can you give an example of the media making such a deal out of it?

Honestly, where to start? OK, here's an example that fired me up so much I wrote a lot about it, so have some of the quotations to hand. During the scottish referendum campaign, it was suggested that as Nichola Sturgeon doesn't have children, she was for that reason unfit to run the country. here's the link There was an outpouring of agreement with this sentiment.

I harvested a few choice remarks from the comments on this article- I use this example, as Theresa May is mentioned, so I think it will absolutely be used as a stick to beat her:

"Anyone who has ever spoken to people who, by choice, do not want to have children knows how self centred these people are”;
“OMG, they are both childless! Didn't know that. It's a valid point as they would care far more for the here and now then for the future generations”;
“It's a shame their parents weren't childless, too!”;
“We have the same problem with childless Elites at Westminster, not just Hague and May, but a good few of the cabinet cannot relate to the fears and struggles of normal people with children”;
“the female-only short list is not coming up with regular women, which are the women that need to be represented.”;
“It's true that all politicians are considered more reliable and trustworthy if they are family people”;
“That's why family people are more trusted, and it's highly applicable here”;
“some people are not meant to breed, natures way for cutting out the rif-raf”.

Do you see what I mean? And yes, I know it's from the Daily Mail comments, so it's not likely to be a bastion of forward thinking, but...these are commonly held views.

The only positive I gained from that article is that it was less gendered than is often the case, as Alec Salmond got about the same amount of flak as Sturgeon did.

Yes exactly FreshwaterSelkie has beaten me to it. I'm old enough to remember the flack and suspicion around Ted Heath. Still going on in fact. I'm not sure it's all a conspiracy against women specifically OP.