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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to take staff out for dinner?

71 replies

DillyDingDillyDong · 30/06/2016 17:22

I started a new job as a nursery manager three months ago. The old manager, let's call her Ann. had been promoted to area manager but the plan was for her to stay as manager for my first month whilst I found my feet before starting the new role but being based in an office on the top floor of our building. First week went well until the Ann was involved in a car accident and wasn't able to work.

The last three months have been really hard, we've had quite a few issues as well as an ofsted inspection (which thankfully went very well!) and the team have been amazing. The deputy manager and room supervisors stepped up to support me and show me the ropes and we've all developed great relationships with each other. They've all worked so hard and I am so grateful for what they've done. From what they've said my managing style is completely different to what they've been used to and they seem to be enjoying coming to work and the general feel around the building is a lot more positive.

As a thank you, I took the staff out for tea and a few drinks in a pub on Friday evening. Nothing rowdy or anything and it wasn't in a place local to nursery. We had an enjoyable evening and some stayed longer or went on to other places after I left about half ten.

Ann came back today and just in conversation I mentioned that we'd gone out on Friday. She said nothing at the time. This afternoon a member of HR team from head office called in to see Ann and I got a call asking for me to come up and see them. I was told by Ann that my socialising with the staff outside of work is inappropriate I itself but to actively arrange and pay for an evening is unprofessional and a cause for concern. I explained that it was a thank you and asked her to show me a policy relating to this that forbids managers from doing this and she said she couldn't but hoped that I would have used common sense to decide if I should or shouldn't do this. She said that she wouldn't give me a warning at this time but in future I need to be aware of what is expected of me on my position and that she will consider disciplinary action if this happens again. The person from HR was taking notes the whole time and I was told I would get a copy. I was so shocked and confused that I didn't really have much to say back to her at the time!

So was I being unreasonable to treat my team to a pub tea and a few wines considering there is no kind of policy or rule stating that I can't?

OP posts:
Original poster
DillyDingDillyDong · 30/06/2016 18:59

Thanks everyone!

I used my own money so it's not an issue over using company funds. Ann is the highest up management wise, after her it's the owners. I don't really want to bring this to their attention as it just seems silly! I've told DH about it and he thinks that Ann may be jealous. The staff have said a few things about her but I've always said that its unprofessional for me to get involved. Morale did seem low when I first started so I am wondering if her attitude of 'don't build relationships with staff' had something to do with this. For the first month or so, staff would apologise for coming to me with issues or concerns. I had to ask them to stop and remind them that was my job to deal with them!

I understand the idea that I might be too friendly with them and therefore not able to discipline staff but I've already had to put three staff members on probation and let an apprentice go so they know I'm not a soft touch!

DH has suggested I speak to HR tomorrow and ask them to clarify exactly why someone had to come over, what the grounds were for Ann having to speak to me and say that in future I won't attend any meetings without my own representative. Do you think that's a bit extreme?

OP posts:
BengalCatMum · 30/06/2016 19:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

44PumpLane · 30/06/2016 19:01

My manager and my company have taken me and the wider team out for nights out- including Tuesday this week. There were cocktails flowing (non alcoholic for a few of us) and everyone had two courses. Then one of the other managers bought a round of drinks.

Ann's and HR's reaction seems odd. I'd ask to speak to them again once you've gathered your thoughts and put your thoughts on the matter across.

What you choose to do in your own time with your own money isn't their concern unless it's illegal or damaging to the business.

ThePinkOcelot · 30/06/2016 19:02

This is ridiculous!! Ann is an arse!!

Mylove, why would it be inappropriate in your Trust? It wouldn't in mine.

Ringadingdingdong22 · 30/06/2016 19:06

Ann is a jealous twat. She hates that the team obviously really like you.

I would be very wary of ann in future.

oldlaundbooth · 30/06/2016 19:07

A. She sounds jealous.

And B. WTAF?

Boss takes staff out to say thanks, oh no, you can't do that?!

If there is nothing written in writing that you cannot do this, then you obviously can do it.

If I were you I'd go back to HR.

Failing that, how about chatting to the owners? They may have their heads in the sand and want to know what's really going on in their nursery! In business, staff morale is paramount.

BeenThereTooSEL · 30/06/2016 19:07

As teachers we have huge piss ups dinners with alcohol at the end of the year. I don't see how this is an issue

ImSoVeryTired · 30/06/2016 19:08

In most of the places I've worked, the directors have taken staff for meals or arranged pub quiz nights etc. Admittedly, I don't work in a nursery but I don't see what difference that makes. If that was Ann's attitude to managing, no wonder they prefer your style! You sound lovely and she sounds like a right harridan.

Original poster
DillyDingDillyDong · 30/06/2016 19:20

Ann didn't interview me because she was on holiday so it was two of the owners and a manager from another nursery. My nursery management experience is limited but I have experience in nurseries and as a manager in a children's centre and local authority. I think Ann wasn't too impressed when they said they'd hired me as she wanted her old deputy manager from another nursery in. So that can explain her wanting me to fail and being pissed off that we managed to get such a good ofsted report. I have made quite a few changes took such as given staff quite a bit more responsibility, cut paperwork down, room layouts and moved staff around rooms so she could also see this as an attack on her maybe?

One of the owners came to visit after the inspection and said that they would arrange a night out for everyone when the report was officially published. I wonder if it is just Ann trying to put me down and assert herself. I'm definitely speaking to HR tomorrow and if it turns out she had no right at all to call me in, which I strongly suspect she didn't, I might make a formal complaint. I know I shouldn't be causing trouble this early on but it might be better to stamp out any ideas she has of walking all over me!

OP posts:
Pico2 · 30/06/2016 19:31

Ahh, that explains why she doesn't like you. I've seen the 'appointed without my agreement' resent last years.

StealthPolarBear · 30/06/2016 19:37

Good luck op. At the very least they need to be a lot more specific about what you did wrong!

Original poster
DillyDingDillyDong · 30/06/2016 19:37

Oh great! I look forward to years of this then! She was a bit off with me on my first week and the deputy even commented on her behaviour and attitude. I might start keeping a log of times when she's unprofessional or intimidating. I've been stressed at times but on the whole love my new job and am really proud of myself and the team. I do t want to give up because Ann can't be a grown up!

OP posts:
PotOfYoghurt · 30/06/2016 19:44

Well Dilly you sound like a strong, confident person who won't be walked over and I think you'll do just fine in this job.

isitginoclock · 30/06/2016 19:46

Will you be my boss OP? X

BillThePony · 30/06/2016 19:46

Wow my manager is coming to my hen do and wedding.

If it's true it's a ridiculous rule.

Beeziekn33ze · 30/06/2016 19:50

Sounds as if Ann just wants her friend in your post. Are you in a union?

Sonders · 30/06/2016 19:52

I used to be a retail manager, started in as a Jr in a medium-sized shop and ended up deputy of the flag ship.

When I was a Jr, I used to socialise with the staff at least once a week and was still known as the queen of disciplinary, I was a hard ass and didn't let my staff get away with anything. I had a couple of full-timers who really let me down one week, both of whom felt truly awful for letting me down.

The store manager in the flagship was totally different, we were categorically not allowed to socialise with anyone below management. I actually got in trouble for going to a supervisor's birthday, in the store they were treated as part of the management team but apparently their pay grade isn't high enough to see her outside of the office. She was also super racist which was very uncomfortable when 90% of staff were non-white.

Anyway, discinplinaries were waaaaaay less effective in the flagship store, because the staff didn't care what the managers thought of them. Nobody cared if they let anyone down, and they thought all the managers were assholes (apart from me 😉).

YANBU, Ann seems like a mean, jealous, terrible manager.

Olddear · 30/06/2016 19:54

Nip this in the bud right now. Let her see you're no pushover.

mylovegoesdown · 30/06/2016 19:57

Thepink - I'd check your policies and procedures because I had no idea my trust had such a policy until there was an 'incident' and we were all sent an email 'reminding' us of a policy most of us didn't even know existed!.

The policy line is that managers/senior clinicians should not have personal/social relationships with staff under them to ensure objectivity and a lack of emotional involvement if complaints or investigations occur.

To be honest, it does make sense. If I made a complaint about a colleague who I know is good mates and goes out socially with the manager, I'd have concerns the manager is in a difficult situation to try and deal with the complaint objectively.

And it can work the other way - I've worked in the past with absolute twats of Consultants who have had had complaints made against them but some staff wouldn't support the complaint (even though they agreed with it) because 'yeah he is a twat sometimes but he took us out that night and paid for all of us so I'd feel like a bitch/a hypocrite/disloyal if I complained about him. Oh and 'yeah he's a twat at work but he takes us out sometimes so he's not all bad is he?'.

Without recognising that he threw a few hundred quid around every few months (a drop in the ocean when you're earning a six figure salary) precisely because he knew it made people feel like they were appreciated by him, he liked them enough to take them into his 'circle' and they felt a sense of kinship so were far less likely to complain about him or support other people in complaining about him.

LifeInJeneral · 30/06/2016 19:58

Hahaha I'd love to see the unfair dismissal case on this in the future...why did you fire her?well she was ring 'nice' to the staff and bought them dinner.
Definitely take it up with HR, I've never heard anything so ridiculous. She is just jealous and probably annoyed that you didn't invite her.

TiggyOBE · 30/06/2016 20:07

Death to Ann!

Close knit teams who play together, work together better. As a nursery underling poor morale is a reason to quit a job. You don't do it for the money. You do it for the love of the job, and if there's no morale there's no love.

Mouikey · 30/06/2016 20:11

I haven't read all the responses, so apologies if I've repeated what others have said....

  1. sounds like a disciplinary meeting to me as HR were involved taking notes...
  2. they should only hold a meeting such as this if you have breached a policy... no policy, no breach...
  3. you should have been allowed to take someone with you if HR were there (see point 1 above).
  4. they can't threaten action either on the day or in the future if they don't have a policy to show you have breached (total case for unfair dismissal)

I would suggest formally writing to HR to:

  1. request a copy of the agreed policy and the disciplinary policy
  2. as if the meeting was a formal disciplinary meeting, what was the purpose of HR being involved, what will happen to the notes and will they go on your file
  3. Formally request a copy of the written notes
  4. ask why you did not get an opportunity of bringing someone along with you or be given notice of the meeting

Be polite and professional.

if you really want to you could also ask what the appropriate procedure is at Christmas (do they really expect you not to go out for a meal with your colleagues???).

As an aside, what is your probationary period (normally 6 months) because I assume they weren't that outraged that they would let you go immediately.

This could be a very subtle form of bullying, so also start taking a note of when things happen, just in case.

If you can join a union, do so as it will give you lots of support.

pieceofpurplesky · 30/06/2016 20:22

Has this been in before or have I got mad deja vu?
I think you sound fab and my department (teachers) often socialise and our manager buys us drinks etc. The only difference is we go far away from school because of parents etc. (Not because we don't like them)

ReallyShouldKnowBetterAtMyAge · 30/06/2016 20:42

I agree with Mouikey

If you have received a warning you should have been given at least 48hrs notice that you were invited to an investigatory meeting and given the opportunity to bring a representative with you. This invite should have also made you aware that notes were going to be taken and give you an apportunoty to discuss this prior to the meeting.

The meeting should then have been held and adjourned before reconvening to advise of a verbal warning being placed on your file for 12 months.

Are you still in probation?

This really needs nipping in the bud. You can't receive a warning over a non policy.

Snowflakes1122 · 30/06/2016 20:45

Ann is a jealous cow. You've been doing too good a job without her around, and she is insecure.