To think this letter is a load of nonsense.

[LovelyBath77]

My husband is a sole trader. A few months ago he did some work for this company nearby. Then the man in charge wouldn't pay him. The company the work is for now wants my husband to finish the job. There was no written contract involved.

Last week he received a 'Without prejudice' letter form the man who hasn't paid him. (This man has been paid from the other company a substantial amount however). It says my husband has let them down, damaged their reputation, that they would have had lots more work from the other company etc. It demands my husband send them plans and drawings related to the work which they had 'asked for repeatedly' or they will take legal action.

Where does my husband stand in regard to this? he thinks he should reply. I think he should not, and that anything he sends them may be used against him.

Also, any idea where he could get advice on this. The CAB? We are not wealthy. Many thanks.

He had agreed an hourly rate less than his usual and put in the invoice which was not paid. It had been agreed they would do the documentation but now seem to want him to do it. He just wants out now

Verbal contracts are not really valid. It's one person word over another.

Do not send the drawings or manual! You will never see the £20k! Make an appointment with CAB - in the nicest possible way for £20k your DH can take a morning off work. He needs paying so if he needs to take the middle man to the small claims court he needs to start the process now.

But we are worried as he's saying will start proceedings against my husband if he doesn't give him the drawings in ten days.

What if he does this? We have no experience in any of this and just want rid of him. If that means not being paid so be it, but don't want these threats continuing.

I do agree with you it's not right though.

Yes, I said that about verbal contracts not being valid, is that right?

Has your DH invoiced for the work done? If there is an unpaid invoice he should send a legal letter. There's a company called Thomas Higgins that we use all the time at work. They charge about £2 for a 'letter before action' and most people will pay up once they receive it. Can't link because I'm on my phone but you can google them.

But if he sends a letter like that won't it provoke them into this potential charge they are on about of defamation etc? Or is that all a buff to avoid paying him?

Thank for the info by the way.

I don't understand. If the middleman has the drawings why is he asking for them?

Toads husband and I don't understand this either. Husband has tried emailing but it is ignored.

There is also a manual as well as the drawings

So, as there is only a verbal contract, is there any grounds or likelihood of this man taking my husband to court for this defamation business?

I am a contracts solicitor and also advise on IP. There is good advice on this thread.

1. Verbal agreements are enforceable but they are harder to prove. It sounds like your husband agreed to do work for this contracting company ( will call them CC) for an hourly rate and signed just an NDA. Is that hourly rate agreed in emails?
2. He was not paid even though he put in an invoice for the sum owed. Do we know roughly how much that sum is that he is owed?
3. I assume there were no standard terms sent by CC to your husband.
4. I believe your husband now wants to work directly for CC's own customer. If there is no written contract and nothing in the NDA which stops him doing so then he is allowed to AS LONG as he does not use breach any term of the NDA - it is very likely he will breach a term of the NDA by doing that work.
5. If there is no written contract and the NDA does not refer to IP rights (just to secrecy) then as your husband is self employed not an employee of CC your husband owns the copyright in the drawings and all CC has is an implied licence to use them. As your husband has not been paid for his agreed rate (why has he not been paid - that is the most important question people are asking on the whole thread) or anything I would not advise him to hand over the drawings even though he is being threatened with legal action. If you want to email me on MN for a quick view by allmeans do - comments on my poits above and also sight of the solicitor's letter would be useful as that will set out why they think he is not entitled to be paid and yet must hand over the drawings.

The likely solution is that they should pay your husband, he hands over the drawings and he does further work on the project for CC - not the ultimate customer.

My understanding is that truth is a defence to defamantion.
To be honest, you guys don't sound ok,e the smartest business people-- and who can afford to lose 20k. You need to email the middleman with facts (as suggested above: include dates things sent ) and your invoice: if you have been paid NOTHING, and done the job, then you should be chasing him .. Not the other way around?
If you have already provided him everything, then I would resend with your invoice - using the formal demand letter of payment above

Go to CAB yourself and get advice.

I'm not offering legal advice.

I wouldn't do anything. As I understand it, your husband is owed money for a job he completed. The middleman did not pay your husband even though the middleman had received payment from the original company.

Your husband has the drawings and manual from the un-paid job.

I would let the middleman take you to court - then your husband can counter-sue for the money he is owed?

NB. I fail to see how the middleman can sue for drawings he hasn't paid for

OP - I think you should grab GirlGoneWild's offer to advise with both hands.

I'd write back and call their bluff. Tell them you have contacted solicitors and are in the process of suing them for breach of contract. The buggers are trying it on plain and simple. Play them at their own game; they are stupid for thinking hubby is naiive,

Sometimes people foolishly do work before it is agreed they will be paid and attend initial meetings in the hope of winning work but there is no obligation to pay them- what I call "pre contract work". It does not look like that here however.

I agree it is unlikely the middleman can sue for drawings he did not pay for. Sometimes it is agreed drawings willb e produced and copyright will pass immediately even before payment - it is a clause people argue over - for the supplier I put in either we keep copyright or it only passes on full payment and the buyer wants copyright to pass immedialtey even if no payment is made. Here if no contract in writing copyright law says husband keeps copyright as no written assignment of it IF there is no contract written down (there might have been some standard terms of middleman however which became the contract) but the buyer obtains a licence to use the drawings.

Thank you for all your replies and relying in such detail. I'm going to share the post with him so we can have a think.

It is stressful, and also in amongst other work going on which has deadlines and end of term for me, so it is helpful.

Apparently the agreement was that the middleman would do the drawings etc though not my husband!

If your husband did drawings and it was not agreed he would do them nor be paid for them (but that he would be paid for other work) then that does not mean the copyright in them is owned by the middleman. However your husband still is subject to the NDA and it is likely that confidential information is on those drawings but not certain. If your husband has no restrictive covenant in the NDA - it needs to be read very carefully - and the ultimate client wants your husband to do work direct for them there is no reason your husband cannot do that (and he is stil owed for his initial work for the MM other than on the drawings).

The NDA might however say he is not to approach or do work for the ultimate client - that is a very common clause otherwise subcontractors might always try to bypass the middle man and go to the ultimate client.

So it may be middle man has wonderful ideas to solve the technical issue, tells your husband, husband without being asked to does drawings and now husband wants to bypass middle man - that bypassing might involve misuse of the middleman's confidential information in breach of the NDA or it may not- depends what the NDA says. It certainly sounds as though th ebest route is your husband gets paid for the work it was agreed to do for the middleman and then he the middle man and the client work out a compromised agreed way forward so that everyone is happy - perhaps middle man to get a percentage of what ultimate client pays your husband (once middle man has paid husband for the work it was agreed husband would do for middle man).

Husband is now finishing further work for the other company though. Middleman has a project he can't finish for the other company. Middleman has been paid in advance for both projects.

I'd second the advice to take up Girlgonewild's offer of advice.

I would also advise that your DH should check his liability insurance to see if he has legal cover and also contract dispute cover. These are two common options and if they are present on his policy, then he may be able to pursue the non-payment AND the IP issue via his insurers.

Take the offer of advice!

And spend some time reading up on the small claims court process: even if you don't end up using it here, any self-employed person needs to know how to make sure they get paid

It certainly sounds like husband has done no wrong and should be paid by middleman and that copyright in the drawings rests with the husband.