To think this letter is a load of nonsense.

[LovelyBath77]

My husband is a sole trader. A few months ago he did some work for this company nearby. Then the man in charge wouldn't pay him. The company the work is for now wants my husband to finish the job. There was no written contract involved.

Last week he received a 'Without prejudice' letter form the man who hasn't paid him. (This man has been paid from the other company a substantial amount however). It says my husband has let them down, damaged their reputation, that they would have had lots more work from the other company etc. It demands my husband send them plans and drawings related to the work which they had 'asked for repeatedly' or they will take legal action.

Where does my husband stand in regard to this? he thinks he should reply. I think he should not, and that anything he sends them may be used against him.

Also, any idea where he could get advice on this. The CAB? We are not wealthy. Many thanks.

Why doesn't your husband file a small claim for the money he is owed by the middle man?

How would he do that? is it easy? its all a bit new to us. I think because the middle man is threatening him with this other stuff.

The only reply or letter he should be sending is...Pay up by x date or I will be taking it to small claims court. Google it, mall te information is online.

The middle man is just postering...because he is threatening your DH it seems to of had the effect of cowering you...just because someone threatens legal action doesn't mean they are right. He would have some explaining to do anyway as he hasn't paid you

So there's a company and a middle man and then your husband?

Your husband was sub contracted by the middle man to do some work for the company and he wasn't paid? Did he invoice the middle man? Do you have any paperwork with payment figures on?

When did your husband start working for the actual company rather than the middle man?

I don't see why he thinks he is entitled to anything when he hasn't paid your DH. I was just wondering if your DH took on any other work with the company whilst still sub contracting for the middle man on that particular job?

Hi no, it all started after he put his invoice in and they wouldn't pay. Then he was told not to go to the company any more despite being in the middle of the project. He continued with the work and finished it. Then this odd letter.

I agree he should say about the payment. I wonder why they want the documents / drawings etc so badly? Would it be to try and pass his work off as their own?

There is another part to this. Another project had been promised by the middleman to the company. They have taken on people who don't seem to know how to do it, and it is in a mess. Now the company want to start again with my husband doing it.

What a nightmare; would have been so much easier just to have worked for them directly.

Not sure CAB deal with business to business disputes, to be honest.
Businesses are deemed to be 'big boys' capable of sorting their own shit.
Does DH have insurance that may include legal helplines etc.

Contracts do not have to be written (apart from for purchase of land etc).

What was originally agreed? Why was an invoice raised part way through - was that agreed?
What reason is the company giving for not paying?

I would suggest paid for legal advice is probably needed.

Yes, why are they saying they won't pay him? Was it supposed to be payment on completion? Why didn't your DH complete it?

There is implied contract but this is at a far lower level than a written one usually.

I would reply without prejudice and say these can be provided for a fee of xyz that being what is owed him. Simple - you can't have the work if you don't pay for it. He is a bloody charlatan.

I hate people that won't pay - currently waiting on 3 clients to pay up when they were supposed to have - we have just over a tenner in cash and nothing else...DDs are looming

Make him pay up in full before doing another minutes work for him.

Maybe I'm wrong but I was under the impression that 'Without Prejudice' letters were sent when the sender didn't want the contents to be admissible as evidence of a matter were to become subject to legal proceedings. Might be worth checking that with the CAB

Without prejudice letters are non admissible in Court.

If you are intending to pursue the matter through the Courts you need to respond on an open basis demanding the money owed (to give them 14 days to pay or whatnot) and then, if you wanted to accept less than what was owed to settle the matter, you make that as a 'without prejudice save as to costs' response. WPSATC means it's non admissible until the issue of legal costs comes up and usually, depending on the outcome, if you offered to accept what the Court has Awarded you then the WPSATC letter becomes admissible.

As suggested above, does your DH have business insurance with legal assistance included?

Also, does your local Council have any small business/business start up assistance that may help?

Is your DH an architect? The RIBA provide free legal advice if you're a member.

Make a counter claim via the small claims court for breach of contract on non-payment. (been there, done that. It sucks)
www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/overview

it all started after he put his invoice in and they wouldn't pay. Then he was told not to go to the company any more despite being in the middle of the project. He continued with the work and finished it. Then this odd letter.

So your dh did finish the job? What reasons were given to him for non-payment? What parts of the job do they think weren't finished? Was there any paperwork at all between your dh and the contracting (non paying) company?

Thanks!

He did finish the job, then he put int he invoice which was of the agreed hourly rate, and that's when they refused to pay. So, he didn't give them the drawings etc.

Then, the letter arrived.

The middle man is also supposed to be doing another project for the same firm but they don't seem to be able to. (husband not working on that one).

Now the company are talking about getting my husband to do that one, instead.

Quite a bit of money involved. Middle man been paid around 40K, husband was meant to be paid around 20K. Company now offering substantial amount for husband to take over and keen to get rid of middle man.

I asked why don't the company claim back the money from middle man but it is apparently a big company with deep pockets, and they probably won't bother they just want rid of middle man.

Update on this-

Have written to CAB no reply as yet.

Have asked local law centre but they won't help as don't do business disputes and advise to go to CAB.

Thanks for replies so far. It is helpful to share it as husband is too busy with work to deal with it really. maybe that's what to do just ignore it and move on.

Feels wrong though.

What reason was given by the middle man for not paying the bill? Was the job completely finished when your DH raised his invoice, or is the work he is now doing direct for the company part of the original job?

One thing which is very helpful when working out how to approach a legal dispute is to prepare a chronology. Put the dates down the left side of a piece of paper and fill in every key event that happened on each date and then put relevant docs in a folder with tabs for each date. eg

1 March signed NDA on Job B. Put your copy of the NDA in the folder under a tab marked 1 March.

18 May: Mr X approached me to quote for job B.

20-23 May: verbal negotiations with mr X regarding pricing and work scope on job B. Give precise times of phone calls, meetings etc. Put any related docs in the file)

20 June: started work on Job B

10 July: completed job B and work signed off by Mr X

10 July: sent invoice to Mr X. Payment terms 30 days. Put invoice in file.

And so on and so on. If you have your facts and dates properly organised like that it's much easier to see the wood from the trees and if you do have to get legal advice it will cost less because all the info will be pre-sorted for your solicitor.

Good luck. Bloke sounds like a chancer. Small claims asap for unpaid invoice sounds like the way to go. You can use your chronology to structure your statement of claim.

Sorry the 1 March reference is to the NDA on a different job, I meant to write "Job A." I am suggesting you put it in the chronology as you asked whether it might be relevant. Without seeing it's terms and scope it's impossible to say whether or not it is relevant, but at the chronology stage you include everything, just in case.

He's had another letter. This time from a solicitor saying they want the drawings in ten days or will commence proceeding on him.

It says he should not have told the company he had not been paid without reason, and again goes on this time about defamation of character?

Not sure what to do. The strange thing is, they apparently already have the drawings, but when he tries to email them they won't communicate.

Don't know what all this rubbish is about. Any advice further? Should he seek a solicitor? We don't really want any further to do with this person and I think it's very odd him doing this when he has not paid my husband. It s obvious the work is done as the other company is signing it off as complete.

He is doing this to avoid paying up.

There is a contract in place that is just as enforceable as a written contract. However it works both ways. Your DH promised to do work on the promise of being paid. Unless there was a agreement of no payment till completion then he does have some ground to defend. Your DH was clear with him that non payment meant that work would cease. However it could be argued by the rogue that non payment was not an excuse for downing tools (although how anyone expects business to continue on that basis is anyone's guess).

You do need to talk to a solicitor. It would be worth your while investing in one to get the rogue off your case. It will make it more likely that you get the money. Good luck

Thanks. He's not that bothered about the money though just wants to see the back of him.

he says there are drawings and a manual the guy is asking for, he has the drawings already in CAD, and he can send the manual. He's very busy with other work but thinking of just sending the manual to get rid of him.

I suggested a covering letter saying he is enclosing the manual and the drawings are already provided.

Is there any problem do you think with doing this? He has asked for it within ten days you see.

But what was your agreement re payment? Did your DH agree that he would invoice on completion or has he invoiced for work already done and not been paid?

That seems to be crucial.