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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

SIL is our Landlord...more of a WWYD

57 replies

albapunk · 21/06/2016 16:02

Sorry this is quite long, NC as potentially outing.

DH and I live in a property owned by his sister. SIL property is perfect for us. When we moved in we had been claiming housing benefit on the previous property, SIL asked us not to continue our claim when we moved into her property as she had trouble in the past. She said she would adjust the rent to reflect this, stating she wasn't worried about making profit.

We agreed to £X amount, which is still a substantial amount of our income but do-able. DH and I have had a rough few years but everything is picking up and I have accepted a new job offer which means we wouldn't be entitled to HB once I start so we figured we could get by on a tighter budget for a few months.

No lease had been signed when we moved in, but it was a hectic move and the last of our worries as the landlord was obviously family. SIL received various letters and a final notice over council tax. DH went in to the office to change all the details over and put us as tenants so SIL is no longer liable as the house is occupied now. DH was told he would need a lease to do this but SIL refused to issue one and told him to tell the council that she has given him the property. DH questioned this, he is currently out of work until September, she is still paying her mortgage and there was no way he was claiming to own a property when he didn't. DH again asked SIL for a lease or a written agreement that we lived in the property and she as no longer liable, again this was refused and SIL said that we can just pay her the council tax (as if the property was still lying empty) on top of the rent.

Of course it kicked off between DH and SIL as DH doesn't want to commit fraud. DH and I would have no address and the council would have the property marked as empty so the council tax amount would be the rate set for landlords with empty properties .DH and SIL has a massive argument as DH was trying to solve the problem so we could deal with the council tax demands that are still being sent to SIL. She has now said she wants nothing more to do with DH, he is as good as dead to her and we've to move out. SIL owns a very successful business so DH thinks this has something to do with tax avoidance as a landlord.

WWYD in this situation? DH is devastated and I'm furious. AIBU to think that if you agree to taking on tenants, family or otherwise, they still require a lease, and be able to put their name on the council tax?!

OP posts:

GrimmauldPlace · 21/06/2016 17:21

You don't have to move out though, surely? Has she started eviction proceedings against you? You have the same rights as any tenant whether there is a written tenancy agreement or not. You have a verbal contract.

GrimmauldPlace · 21/06/2016 17:23

Also, can't you just show the council your bank statements showing your monthly rent payments and explain to them that there is no written tenancy?

fridgepants · 21/06/2016 17:34

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the user's request.

Lordamighty · 21/06/2016 17:41

You do not have to produce a tenancy agreement to pay council tax you just phone up & give your details. You do have to show a tenancy agreement to claim HB. In my area there is only 1 month free on an empty property & then the full amount is payable.

Arborea · 21/06/2016 17:45

Could your DP have been applying for Council Tax benefit? He might have needed a copy of the lease for that.

shillwheeler · 21/06/2016 17:45

Does make me wonder too what your SIL is up to. It defies logic that she does not want you to pay council tax, particularly as in a lot of areas the rate for unoccupied properties is now actually higher. Definitely smells fishy.

As a landlord (and, wearing a different hat) tenant, I have never been asked to evidence a lease to pay council tax. Council always seem happy to take it! I wonder in your case if there could be a story there too, like they are concerned about arrears or the potential for fraud. Couldn't you just phone them up and ask them? Even if you don't have a lease, if you are occupying the property and there is nobody higher up in the chain (i.e. an occupying owner or lessee) you would be liable to pay the tax.

As a matter of practice, the last thing you would want to do is to not pay, then find yourself lumbered with arrears - so I would get this sorted out sooner rather than later.

As to your SIL refusal to give you a lease, it sounds most odd. Could be that she does not want to breach the terms of her mortgage, although as you indicate it is a buy-to-let mortgage, I'm surprised at this. Also, the fact that she doesn't give you a legal document called a lease, doesn't mean there isn't one. If you have exclusive occupation and are paying rent, there is a very strong argument that you have a lease, albeit not a written one.

I say "argument" because she may counter that it is just an informal family arrangement. Keep evidence of rent payments etc. to show the intention is more formal. TBH she is being pretty dumb not to give you a formal AST as it potentially makes it much harder to evict you. (I don't get involved with housing benefit, but I also understand that you are much less likely to get alternative council/social housing if you leave voluntarily. Dumb as it may seem, it's better to let your landlord evict you....but speak to someone who knows more about this sector).

Although a lot of people have advised you to find somewhere else, and that may make emotional sense, I would really recommend that you get some advice from an independent third party (Shelter, CAB, Law Centre). I would not feel forced to move until you are ready.

Don't get drawn into SIL's web of lies. Above all, don't go along with anything that could be considered fraud! It will come back and bite you.

TwatbadgingCuntfuckery · 21/06/2016 17:54

I think the form and proof of lease is probably because the OP's DH said it was his sister's house when sorting out council tax and its the extra paper work to prove its not a scam or some sort of fraud.

OP, I suspect your SIL doesn't declare the income from the rent on the property that you are currently paying which is why she refuses a lease or for council tax to be in your name.

alltouchedout · 21/06/2016 18:07

Yes, I was going to day what the fabulously named TwatbadgingCuntfuckery has just posted- because it's being rented from family there's probably a requirement t to prove it's a genuine tenancy and not some sort of scam.

HereIAm20 · 21/06/2016 18:24

Most BTL mortgages specify that you must not rent to family members. I suspect that is why she wants no paper trail that it is indeed a family member she is renting to.

If you refuse to move she will have to start eviction proceedings to get you to leave. I would still transfer the rent to her each month so she won't have grounds to do so for non-payment of rent.

OnTheEdgeOfItAll · 21/06/2016 18:29

Agree with Arborea, sounds like a council tax benefit form. Have rented for almost 20 years, moved 6+ times, and never needed a lease to pay CT only for a benefit.

feetheart · 21/06/2016 19:14

As a matter of interest I don't think SiL can't evict you without a tenancy agreement and details of where any deposit is lodged. She is on very dodgy ground as a landlord.

feetheart · 21/06/2016 19:18

Sorry - don't think SiL CAN evict you.

It's VERY hard to evict a tenant when everything is legal and above board

TinklyLittleLaugh · 21/06/2016 19:19

I rent a property to my sister. She has a lease and gets a bit of housing benefit. Yes we had to jump through a few more hoops but nothing particularly arduous.

milliemolliemou · 21/06/2016 19:29

I'd also be tempted while the battle rages to set up a specific account to put your rent in to - but get advice from CAB. It would show your intent to pay but also give you a bargaining chip.

Ginslinger · 21/06/2016 19:35

I have rented property for the DCs and never needed to show lease to pay their council tax - that really doesn't sound right

cansu · 21/06/2016 19:40

Pay her the money. If she won't accept it put it in an account for her and sends her written notification. Write to council copying her in stating that you are renting the property from her and that you have asked her to sign relevant paperwork. I think she is hiding something. She is being v unfair to drag you into it. If she genuinely wanted to help you she would let you claim the housing benefit and charge you a fair rent for it. The fact that she is pissing about indicates something shitty. In the long term I would look for something else.

AgnetaTheViking · 21/06/2016 19:42

A quick scan of the CAB website tells me that you are an Assured Shorthold Tenant regardless of whether your tenancy agreement is written or oral. It also tells me that if your tenancy began after 28 February 1997 your SIL is committing a criminal offence by not giving you a statement of the basic terms of your tenancy agreement.

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/housing/renting-a-home/renting-from-a-private-landlord/

Original poster

albapunk · 21/06/2016 21:06

Thank you everyone.

On closer look and from speaking to DH, it's definitely not a council tax benefit form. It clearly asks for landlord details, and that they may ask for further evidence such as a lease. She doesn't want us to give any details but had told us we needed to sort out the council tax because she cancelled the Direct Debit and it needed to be changed to us, which we can't do because she doesn't want to put her details down or provide a lease. We are in limbo basically living in a house that we can't use as our address, we owe council tax that we can't pay because we don't live here in their eyes. I don't understand why she cancelled her payments and asked us to sort it out if she was then going to come out with what I've written in my OP.

SIL wants to keep up the guise that the house is empty, the council will have the house marked as empty and we've to pay her the "rent" money and now the council tax bill for an "empty" house that she has already cancelled the payments for. It makes no sense, someone HAS to be on the council tax bill, she cancelled her payments and wants us to pay but we can't because she won't allow us to use her details or provide the information required, but as she has cancelled her payments she can't say the house is empty either.

I'm trying my best to make sense but this is absolute mess. MIL witnessed the entire argument and is saying that SIL just "doesnt want the government involved" but that her words to DH about being dead to her, and to move out were uncalled for. Family eh?

OP posts:

GrimmauldPlace · 21/06/2016 21:10

Doesn't want the government involved

Does that actually translate to "doesn't want to pay the tax due on her rental income"? Sure sounds like it to me. She should not be dragging you in to this. If she can't deal with being a landlord and all that comes with it then she should sell the property.

Original poster

albapunk · 21/06/2016 21:16

MrsFizzy she is wealthy and her business is doing well, her Fiance is also wealthy. Her business is a legit company, registered, paying tax etc so I don't understand why it's such an issue to pay tax on her rental income, which will be peanuts compared to how much money her and DP have coming in anyway, that is if this whole thing is tax avoidance. Previous to us moving in the property would have been costing her money anyway!

OP posts:

HereIAm20 · 21/06/2016 21:22

I don't understand why you can't use the property as your address though?

Original poster

albapunk · 21/06/2016 21:27

We can use it for bog standard stuff, but we can't be on the electoral role which means we can't vote, my credit rating which I'm trying to improve is going to suffer also.

OP posts:

GrimmauldPlace · 21/06/2016 21:55

It doesn't make any sense, especially if you're pretty certain it's not a tax dodge.

Why can't you go on the electoral roll? You don't need to provide a tenancy agreement or council tax payments for that. I thought it was compulsory to be on the electoral roll that's what the guy with the clipboard told me when I forgot to send the form back

Original poster

albapunk · 21/06/2016 22:03

MrsFizzy they use the electoral role to check for council tax and other frauds apparently. I'll happily be proven wrong on this though!

It could be a tax dodge, I just don't understand why as SIL and Fiance are very wealthy and she has a legit business. The whole thing is such a mess, I think I need to just take a day to process everything that is going on and make some calls to CAB etc.

OP posts:

BarbaraofSeville · 21/06/2016 22:11

Maybe the rental income would push her over a tax threshold and she would pay most of the rental income in tax. No excuse though, if she receives the income, she should pay tax on it.

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