To ask bad/ disturbed sleepers how you sleep???

[MoneybagsIamnot]

Posting in here really for traffic I guess as I'm at my wit's end!

Woke up at 2.30 last night, after not getting to sleep til gone 11 and I just couldn't get back to sleep. This is happening more and more.

I've tried not looking at my phone for half an hour or so before bed, listening to music, herbal remedies etc. Sometimes ill manage a half decent nights sleep but more and more I'm only Managing a few hours and I can't live life the next day (I've got such a busy day ahead of me at work, I just want to cry!)

Any tips for disturbed sleep?

Vitamin D3 supplements made a huge difference to my sleep. There's a TED talk on it somewhere but I can't find the link. Best to take it with vitamin K2 as well though and really important that you take D3 and not D2 x

I agree with fomal no alcohol - even small amounts affect progesterone levels and stress hormones. Alcohol is very estrogenic.

Great advice getting blood work. You may also want to try taking your pulse and temps first thing as soon as you wake, then after eating. Low temp is highly indicative of thyroid problems. In fact blood tests alone aren't always reliable as they can show your thyroid to be working fine when in actual fact you can still be hypothyroid and struggle with symptoms. The temps/pulse is an old yet effective method. Google this. Also google the works of Ray Peat. He has many articles on his website plus there is a fantastic forum full of advice. It's a lot to take in at first as it goes against mainstream science. I was slept oval at first but it has changed my life - and I've tried a lot of things. We are being misinformed about so many things. Our doctors can often push drugs to mask our symptoms instead of helping us find the root cause and dealing with it in a more natural way. Not to say doctors and medication don't have their place of course, but it's just one part of a giant puzzle. Learning about your body and understanding why it does what it does will be one of the best things you ever do.

You mention pain problems. Would you be open to discussing these further? I too have/had many pain issues - joints and muscles everywhere as well as endometriosis and period pain, back and neck/shoulder pain plus earache from tinnitus/hyperacusis. I have overcome many of these by several things including taking serrapeptase (a silk worm enzyme that eats scar tissue - this also cleared my endometriosis, which is essentially dead tissue, and along with a few other things I did enabled me to finally become pregnant with my now 18month old daughter) I took it in quite high amounts over a year it was expensive but worth it. No more hospital episodes! I occasionally do top ups to help deal with any new inflammation. The best deal for it I found was vitacure online - Holland and Barratt type places just rip you off.

I also changed my diet radically by decreasing grains, cutting gluten, and increasing deficient nutrients - magnesium (I also use a liquid ionic magnesium from Amazon as a top up as magnesium supplements are useless and do not absorb - I also use Epsom salts which you can get cheap in bulk on eBay about £16 for a 25kg bag) plus all of the B's, especially D3, and serious amounts of protein as well as increasing my progesterone levels (that's another story) and decreasing estrogen (by avoiding estrogenic foods and chemicals)

I no longer require pain relief every day (which by the way opiates just give you more pain and more long term health problems - I wish I could go back in time! They affect everything. Not to mention all the problems just from wrecking the bowels via constipation! Quitting them was essential to regaining health and helping pain problems - isn't that ironic?) I manage symptoms much more easily now. I take hot Epsom salt baths (1-2 cups) to get rid of any aches before bed to help aid falling to sleep which has been a game changer for me. I used to get horrific period pain too for over ten years since I got my period, now I barely get mild cramps mostly thanks to the change in progesterone/estrogen ratio which I discovered was also responsible for a lot of my joint/muscle pains plus fatigue. (I'm 30 by the way) It's not just menopausal women that suffer with this.

Have you considered pink noise instead of white? I have tinnitus which is not fun to live with (I had a nervous breakdown at first until I habituated) let alone sleep with and I always have to have noise on. I find white noise too harsh but pink is much nicer. In fact I now mostly use my large dyson fan as it has a soothing frequency which is nicer to sleep with. It was pricey but a bday present. I have had it on 24/7 for 3 years now! I just turn it around in winter lol. It cleans the air too. Fantastic. You might also like the thunderspace app - the guy who made this actually had tinnitus himself. There's a range of rain themes on there, it even has a lightening mode which dh and I find pretty exciting on a dark night as we love thunderstorms! They don't all have thunder some are just peaceful rain.

I'm so sorry you are struggling with so many things, I really feel for you. Hopefully with some lifestyle changes we can help you deal better.

fomal sorry you have such an insomniac baby! It took almost 15 months for our little one to sleep through! It is so hard functioning like that, I hope things turn around for you soon!

babynamechange excellent advice on the k2! Vitamin k is where vitamin d was about ten years ago - misunderstood and underestimated. It is more important than we realise. I read some line about how vitamin d is the gatekeeper and vitamin k is the guide that funnels it through to all the important places. It is also very important for calcium. Without enough vit k the calcium stays in all the wrong places but with the k it is funnelled to the places it is needed eg bones and teeth. The minimal amount needed for blood clotting is not enough to gain all these other health benefits.

You don't want to go too crazy on it though. If you can't get it via food then supplement for a while to boost stores, I don't think you need to take every day for the rest of your life. I take one with both k1 and k2 (mk4 and mk7) to get the full spectrum and plan to use it 2/3 months maybe a couple times a year as my stores are so low (plus I'm taking baby aspirin - for its effect on pufa, not as pain relief)

Ugh poor you. I go through phases of shit sleep and then other phases where struggle to stay awake.... when Im in a not sleeping phases this is what I do to help:

Firstly when I first got insomnia I was horrifically stressed by it. Sleep is my answer to lifes difficulties and not being able to sleep was terrible.

The main thing I learned, is that you have to accept and truly believe that you dont care if you sleep. This sounds odd as you really dont want to be tired, but as others have said it is stress of not sleeping that causes the problem to mushroom. You have to change the way you think about sleep. So when Im in one of these phases I just accept that it is exactly that. A phase,....it wont last, and maybe my body just doesnt need too much sleep at the moment. I practice mindfulness and acceptance to just fully accept the fact that this is how it is, and therefore I cant do too much influence it. It will change again as that is the way of life.

Try to also find the positives about not sleeping (ie my eyes look more green when Ive not slept as much -probably due to contrast of red white parts) or I think - oh 4 hours sleep last night thats quite good (in the sense that if you were on a longhaul flight youd be quite pleased to have slept for 4 hours / or if baby was a newborn). The way we perceive sleep is subjective.

The above is the only thing that properly works for me.
These are other things I do to try to help
Relaxing essential oils on pillow
Low lighting
No ipad / phone
No checking clocks
No "should"ing. (I should go to bed at 10 pm / I should be asleep now / I should be tired)
Meditation apps
White noise apps
Always sleep with earplugs and sleep mask
Dark bedroom

I never had these issues until I had kids, thing they destroyed my sleep cycles!

Oh and like others if I cant sleep then I get up and have a change of scene. quite often I can be awake in bed for 2 hours but if I get up and lie down on the sofa to read sometimes I can be off to sleep in 20 minutes.

Here is a useful quote taken from one of Ray's articles on blood sugar and the stress reaction:

“Blood sugar falls at night, and the body relies on the glucose stored in the liver as glycogen for energy, and hypothyroid people store very little sugar. As a result, adrenalin and cortisol begin to rise almost as soon as a person goes to bed, and in hypothyroid people, they rise very high, with the adrenalin usually peaking around 1 or 2 A.M., and the cortisol peaking around dawn; the high cortisol raises blood sugar as morning approaches, and allows adrenalin to decline. Some people wake up during the adrenalin peak with a pounding heart, and have trouble getting back to sleep unless they eat something. If the night-time stress is very high, the adrenalin will still be high until breakfast, increasing both temperature and pulse rate. The cortisol stimulates the breakdown of muscle tissue and its conversion to energy, so it is thermogenic, for some of the same reasons that food is thermogenic.

I think it would also be important to note that some very important physiological processes happen during sleep that are altered if sleep is disrupted, for example our neurotransmitter ratios. So in theory segmented sleep may sound good but it's going to have a detrimental effect on health long term (especially if you start guzzling caffeine/alcohol and smoking tobacco/ when you wake up!)

That being said, not sleeping at all is equally if not more detrimental especially to your mental health, so if this segmented theory of sleep works for you then it would be better than only sleeping a few hours then staying awake throughout the next day. Just avoid blue light, do something calming, drink a glass of milk/salt or a gelatin tea maybe.

There is nothing quite like disrupted/minimal sleep to cause a psychotic breakdown.

I meant the caffeine/tobacco as a joke - obviously nobody in their right mind would do that today

I have tried all of the above and they do work sometimes. But for me ,there is an internal switch that gets fucked up if my mind gets stuck on a groove . Sometimes I can flick the switch by thinking " fuck it,so I'm not going to go to sleep.'?

The biggest help to me for pain keeping me awake has been taking a tiny dose of amitriptyline.

I generally restrict caffeine to once a day, with my breakfast. I might have some more, early afternoon, if I'm very active that day.

I avoid having roast red meat for dinner. That has terrible effects on my ability to rest.

And I do read to sleep. Only usually takes a few pages!

That said, when my hormones decide that sleep isn't happening, nothing works.

I second ElspethFlashman on the Laser Lite ear plugs - they're the only ones I ever used now. No others (and I've tried lots) even come close. Buy in bulk and they're really cheap.

I can't sleep with earplugs. Too bloody noisy!

armami that is really interested. You've identified that it's your mind - your brain chemicals so to speak - that are causing the issue for you. Then the minute you think screw it, you have actively decided not to engage those chemicals thus changing the chemistry of your body allowing other hormones to rise enough for you to fall asleep. Of course everyone's chemistry is different. I know I've tried this before and sometimes it's worked but sometimes I've still been full of too many adrenaline symptoms to relax. I think this highlights though that the thoughts we have affect our body on a very physical level. There is a study somewhere online that showed how thinking negative thoughts releases endotoxins but I can't find it now!

Mindfulness is a great technique but I was never very good at it. I always found distraction to be the best thing for me.

To counteract the stimulating effect of caffeine you could try taking it with 500mg of Niacinimide (I've used 1000mg with good effects) and also a full stomach and lots of sugar (drink your coffee and have some OJ or other juice or milk too, not talking mars bars really) will lessen the jitters.

*interesting

Trazadone. An utter godsend.

I already exercise, don't drink caffeine, eat really well with no sugar, go to bed at a reasonable hour, earplugs, eye mask, blackout shades, tried every herbal remedy and tea under the sun, and still only manage to sleep 11-3.30. This went on for a year. I was on the edge of a nervous breakdown, decided that enough was enough, and have slept 6-8 hours nightly for the past six weeks. It's glorious.

One hundred percent agree with the above analysis about adrenaline and cortisol. I developed Hashimoto's three years ago, and my adrenal glands haven't been the same since. By any sort of adrenal supplement is too too stimulating and makes the sleep situation worse.

I'm hoping it won't be forever, but Trazadone has given me my life back.

OP, look into a supplement called Inositol, and also powdered magnesium.

stopgap have you read any of Ray Peats work? It's a lot to take in it at first but the more you read the more it makes sense. It's not a diet it's a way of living, understanding and healing the body. His articles could be especially beneficial to you as well as people on the forum with similar problems. They are so helpful.

If medications like amitrip or trazadone help people there is no shame in that, the goal when you are that far down is just to feel better. As long as you keep nourishing the body and giving it what it needs to function optimally. I've never been compatible with any anti-D in the past however when my tinnitus peaks bad I use a sedating antihistamine because I know it would be far worse for my body to be deprived of sleep. Sometimes you just have to choose your battles.

The body does need some sugar though, going carb free or sugar free is not what it's made out to be. I think the weight loss companies started those fads (don't even get me started on how terrible starving the body is for you! Our bodies need energy. Starving it just damages hormones and the thyroid) It just needs the right form eg fructose preferably or if needs must then simple cane sugar - some people add a spoon to their milk with the salt (keep mentioning that I don't mean things like brownies and doughnuts) Sounds mad doesn't it until you read the science of how the body works. That being said if you are in poor health with a poor liver or thyroid then you probably feel worse on too much sugar. I know I did at first. It's recommended to start out with quality protein and milk if this is so, and potatoes too (the quality of protein in potato is excellent even though the amount reads low). Too many grains and gluten affects things that in turn affect sleep. We are taught that whole grains are fantastic for us and we eat them at every meal - cereal, toast, sandwiches, pasta etc. It's just not the case, that's too much. Ever since I changed my diet with an emphasis on quality protein, dairy (also not bad) and few grains I have felt (and looked) so much better. If I have a day of grains or a crazy brownie obsession then I do feel physically worse but sometimes it's worth it just enjoy it (especially as I still get pms cravings - something I'm still working on.)

I wonder if you would benefit from coconut oil too stopgap. And maybe a saliva test of your sex hormones to see if you are estrogen dominant/progesterone deficient. Especially if you are pre-menopausal or beyond. I wish you well anyway, Hashimotos can not be easy to live with.

As disreputabledog said upthread I listen to audiobooks that I have heard/read before so I don't have to concentrate on the storyline which fills my head enough not to let other thoughts in and allows me to drift off. Harry Potter read by Stephen Fry is my fave. I have all seven books on my iPod.

Thank you, April. It's nice to talk to someone so knowledgeable about adrenals and blood sugar!

I have heard of Dr Peat, but would like to read more. I eat the same way you do--sheep and goat milk dairy in moderation, organic protein and wild fish, tons of vegetables and sweet potatoes and potatoes (in small amounts). I also consume coconut oil, and am grain- and gluten-free.

My hormones are spot on, save for my adrenals, with my cortisol rock bottom most of the time and my DHEA-s elevated. I'm 39, with no history of early menopause in the family.

I also switched from years of cardio (big runner) to more weights and vinyasa yoga, as I know how easily the adrenal glands are taxed.

I really did try everything before opting for Trazadone. Sometimes it's okay to admit a temporary defeat, and work towards gaining strength before resuming the battle against the pesky hormonal fluctuations.

I'm also atypical thyroid/PCOS, as I'm slim (5'7 and size 8) so I think a little more complex to treat.

So happy that eating a certain way has done wonders for you.

Backs flower remedy, White Chestnut works for calming the mind. It really helps from thought traffic going round in my head. Also, second a podcast I put a headphone in one ear & drift off. There's no such thing as a fish podcast works for me. I think my brain has accustomed itself to their voices, had a long snooze on a plane recently listening to them

Just lost my post will start again

I certainly believe that you tried everything - everything you know of. We can only do what we know! Goodness knows how much I wasted on things that didn't work (or that might have, I was just not using them right eg calcium needs D3 and K) Certainly don't feel negative about anything you do, negative thoughts lead to more negative thoughts which lead to depression and more sleep/health issues. Stay positive. Say 'I'm taking this so that I can sleep and feel better and keep my hormones/mood stable'. Always be positive. You're your own best friend. With all the criticism and judgement in the world why make it any harder on yourself I say!

Changing my diet certainly helped massively as my Western diet was making me more ill. Also using some particular supplements. Yet a key player was progesterone therapy. It took me a while to get it right and it really goes hand in hand with diet - I was eating too many grains and not enough protein. I had to up my protein to 130g to start getting results! I also have a poor liver right now so started with a diet of lots of milk, eggs, muscle meats, potatoes and gelatin (granulated form and Great Lakes - 60g a day mixed in tea or milk) and severely restricting grains/gluten as well as fruit and veg and other sugars except a little OJ. I plan to increase my fruit/juice intake and some veg as I improve my liver but I will never go back to surviving on grains again. As I'm taking a lot of progesterone I need the protein to synthesise it. I used to be intolerant to milk until I began drinking it every day. Now I love it and feel great on it. It took a while to get my head around the idea of eating this way after I believed everything I read in health magazines for so many years. But wow was it worth it. I'm still learning as I go along.

You sound very intelligent and clued up so I would say really go at it with Ray's work. It's a lot to take in but when all else has failed there's nothing left to lose. If you join the forum you mayb find lots of help from others on your cortisol and dhea issues. If you google keywords like adrenal fatigue and the thyroid you can read old posts that could be very informative to you. As you know what you are talking about I think it would be safe to guide you to Wray Whytes website too, as you may be able to gauge from that whether you would benefit also from progesterone therapy. You say your hormones are okay but as you have thyroid and pcos issues I'm going to say they may look okay on paper but they are not functioning optimally enough for you to feel good. This is so often the case. In fact blood tests are not always a relianle reflection of our actual hormonal workings. You are better going by symptoms. My hormones showed give yet I was in agony with joint/muscle pain, fatigue, water retention, mood swings, depression, endometriosis, pms, hair problems. All indicative of high estrogen and not enough progesterone suppress it! Yet I was told more or less that half of it was in my head and the other half I was just offered anti depressants for (and not a mention of vitamin d3 in sight!) Pcos is a disease related to high estrogen. In fact many diseases are related to an excess of estrogen and there are now studies surfacing providing more evidence of this. For years women were given estrogen as the only form of hormone replacement therapy, without any progesterone to counteract or balance it at all! Today more doctors are getting clued up and beginning to understand the importance of this hormone, however you're unlikely to find that in your local gp (such is my experience) As the thyroid and progesterone are linked (they boost each other) I would think this is an area worth looking into. Sometimes taking progesterone in a high enough dose can help the thyroid but it seems that any serious thyroid issue needs addressing more directly (although there's no harm in still doing progesterone therapy of course).

I still struggle with cortisol and serotonin levels (I had suicidal thoughts in the past when my brain chemistry went completely crazy - it even happened right after I conceived) yet my moods and depression is so much better now just from all the changes I've already made. I also struggle with hypothyroidism - im fairly new to the game and I understand that it took years for me to get sick so will take years to get better - however I've already made huge accomplishments within a year. I'm confident I can keep uncovering the answers whether its via nutrition or medication. I came to Ray late and didn't start gaining benefit from things until I understood that my body works as a whole and everything I do matters, and that I need to understand how it works before claiming nothing works for me. I really underestimated diet for example. Your diet sounds good but maybe like me you're just missing a few things without realising. We can't do what we don't know. I'd say post your thyroid panel on the forum so you can get some better advice, and see what medication changes you can make. Maybe tweaking them will help you. There's a reason for everything that is happening to you, it's just discovering what that is. Not easy I know, sometimes it feels hopeless but stay positive. The good news is you're still young enough to turn things around, and Peat says something along the lines of how when given the right environment the body has the ability to heal. Don't give up

Sorry op for hijacking thread a little, though some of this info could maybe help you too

Hello,

Sorry everyone, I’ve had a manic day as expected!

So, I’ll try and answer Q’s. Yes, I am stressed, I am naturally a big worrier (think I suffer with anxiety, always have really but have never been to Drs to get it diagnosed) I really try and not think about stuff when I sleep but sometimes my mind just keeps naturally wandering.

I haven’t tried Chamomile tea, perhaps I’ll give that a shot.

Tried music (tried that last night) it didn’t work, tried audio book, I think that may have worked so I might give it another whirl.

I sleep with the window open. I am a fussy sleeper, I HAVE to have a cold room, eye mask on and ear plugs in as I’m a very light sleeper so the slightest noise, bit of light etc wakes me up.

The one thing I do is panic about not being able to get to sleep which, as PP have suggested, just makes the situation 10 x worse. I also just lie there, I never get up and walk about, read etc. So I will give that a try too.

I don’t drink any caffeine after 2.30 most days

I too have noticed alcohol really affects my sleep so I do NO alcohol now Mon-Friday.

I’m really trying :cries:

Oh and I exercise daily too, I'm quite sporty.

Is Trazadone prescription only?

I'll reply to everyone else after work. Thank you for all the advice!

Sometimes a podcast on YouTube called 'sleep with me' helps. It's a guy with a southern American accent (sounds like Owen Wilson) he kind of just witters on not making sense and it sometimes helps.

Sometimes a really cold shower at bedtime helps too and then getting warm in bed.

Yes, Trazadone is prescription-only. At higher levels it's an anti-anxiety medication, but at smaller doses (25-50mg) it is used to treat depression. It's way more effective than Ambien, in my opinion.

Get started on Magnesium, which has a calming effect, and Inositol is fabulous. It is a B-vitamin derivative, and balances blood sugar, but at higher levels it is a natural and very effective way to treat anxiety. If I didn't have my thyroid nonsense getting in the way, I believe that a combination of these two supplements could have aided better sleep.

Like you, I am extremely anxious if I don't sleep. Try going to bed more like 10pm. For the anxious soul, I think it's rather soothing, as your mind tells you that it's okay if you wake early, as you'll still have good sleep under your belt.

I'm in the U.S., so am not sure whether Trazadone is called something else, although I'm 99 percent sure that's the generic name.

Best of luck, OP--it's wretched being an insomniac in a world of mostly decent sleepers.