To ask bad/ disturbed sleepers how you sleep???

[MoneybagsIamnot]

Posting in here really for traffic I guess as I'm at my wit's end!

Woke up at 2.30 last night, after not getting to sleep til gone 11 and I just couldn't get back to sleep. This is happening more and more.

I've tried not looking at my phone for half an hour or so before bed, listening to music, herbal remedies etc. Sometimes ill manage a half decent nights sleep but more and more I'm only Managing a few hours and I can't live life the next day (I've got such a busy day ahead of me at work, I just want to cry!)

Any tips for disturbed sleep?

[PeterandJudithSurname]

Nytol. Not for every night use though.

[CookieWarbler]

Placemarking. Some good advice here! I tend to rely on Sominex but hate the groggy feeling the next day

[ShotgunNotDoingThePans]

Nytol herbal is quite good for breaking a pattern. Doesn't leave you as groggy as the chemical version.

[Muddledupme]

If your really struggling ask to be referred to a sleep disorder centre where they will do a detailed sleep study amongst numerous other tests and they claim to be able to solve or medicate your problem effectively. They have a brilliant unit in guys hospital.

[EBearhug]

Trazodone is Molipaxin in the UK.

[stopgap]

Also, you need to get your doctor to do a full thyroid panel, not just the TSH test. Most important of all, get them to test for TPO antibodies, as elevated levels indicate you have Hashimoto's, and your TSH could still be within normal range.

[stopgap]

Moneybags, being on thyroid medication will help you lose weight. Even better if it's a brand called Armour (natural dessicated thyroid) as opposed to synthetic versions. I believe that in the UK, only private GPs prescribe Armour.

Anyhow, when I first developed Hashimoto's, my weight went from the usual 8 stone 7 to 9 stone 7. I'm 5'7, but have always been really, really slim, never gained weight, and alarm bells went off, as I hadn't changed my eating habits. I also had brain fog and hair loss. I'm now at 8 stone 10, which is more in line with my weight since I was a teen. I know several people with thyroid problems, and some are slim, some are overweight. I think it's a misconception that a thyroid problem will lead everyone to gain masses of weight.

[StarryIllusion]

I make something up. Pretend that for some life or death reason I have to pretend to be asleep or that something is watching me but I have to pretend I don't know its there. The pretending to sleep inevitably leads to dropping off. Weird but it works.

[MoneybagsIamnot]

Thank you April for all your input.

To be honest, I have thought before that perhaps I could have thyroid issues but I'm not overweight, 8st and 5'3. I'll google symptoms. I really don't want to go on thyroid medication. I've seen what it does to people, 2 people close to me have been treated for under/over active thyroid and they have out on so much weight due to the mess and really struggle to get it off I'm naturally slim and have been my whole life and the thought of putting on weight horrifies me.

I'll give some suggestions in this thread a try and see where I am in a couple of weeks.

[oldharrysgame]

Big fan of familiar audio books on iPod - not gripping page turners. Set iPod to switch off in 30 mins , stick earphone in one ear, press play. If I wake up in the night I do the same. Never fails.

[velourvoyageur]

Oh yes and I fall asleep listening to Gilmore Girls or something else I know by heart! But that contradicts advice about blue light :)

[velourvoyageur]

sorry for wonky link! sleepy tea

[velourvoyageur]

I read this counting pattern on MN last year, use it every night automatically and it really works for some reason:
12345678910
22345678910
33345678910
444567....and so on until ten
Mostly I reach about 1.5 'sets' before sleep. Suddenly you get aware that your legs feel heavy and you haven't moved for ages and you're pretty much dozing. Kind of like putting your mind to sleep so it can put the rest of you to sleep
I have patchy insomnia, atm none, when I have it I just wait it out....but I recommend OTC sleeping pills containing doxylamine and herbal tea [[http://www.naturalia.fr/bio-36g-tisane-bio-mieux-dormir_5893_6_109.htm]], & also being strict with yourself about not letting your mind wander off and fix on topics that will keep you alert. Once I realised I did this it was easier to stop it.
I know herbal teas don't work for everyone but IME they are magic and the process of settling down with a cup of warm tea, winding down etc, I suppose that must be good psychologically too.
Hope your insomnia doesn't last too long OP :) Mine tend to resolve quite suddenly tho most happen the first couple of weeks or so in a new place/bed (feel like I'm constantly lugging suitcases around!) so have an identifiable trigger I guess. Even from the first night it can make you feel really hopeless, desperate, weepy, so I have a lot of sympathy!

[thenewaveragebear1983]

I find that it helps to tell myself that it doesn't matter if I don't sleep. I know this sounds weird, but if I pressure myself to sleep then I can't drift off. I'll work out my day ahead and tell myself I can manage if I don't sleep. We can all manage one day on no sleep. Paul McKenna's book and audio is very good. One thing he says is that you will eventually sleep and get the minimum hours, the essential hours. So if I'm having a terrible night I just go downstairs, read or watch TV, and try again later. Yes, I'm tired the next day but its better than lying awake frustrated. I agree no caffeine after lunch, I also find exercise too late is detrimental. Kalms tablets during the day, not just at night also help me.
Its a miserable existence being an insomniac and can feel like the loneliest place in the world. I have bouts that last several weeks at a time, and also have a few bad nights before my period.

[Fomalhaut]

Try no alcohol at all - even tiny amounts affect my sleep for days.

I'd be wary of any sedating drugs to be honest. They are best used for short term insomnia, not general insomnia - almost all are addictive and have a rebound effect. Very few really knock you out either - I've tried an awful lot of them and not slept, just felt awful and wired.

Melatonin is very good, but the advice to not sit and stew is really the key, I think. That shift in mindset to 'I am resting' is crucial.

[AprilLoveJ]

I'd say poor sleep/insomnia is an extremely common disorder amongst people at some point in their life. My mum slept fantastically her entire life until menopause hit. So you are definately not alone op. Good luck and don't beat yourself up okay. There is help out there.

[AprilLoveJ]

Diphenhydramine (Sleepeaze at Boots)
Cinnarizine (Stugeron OTC in uk)
Promethazine (Phenergan OTC in uk)

A small list of sedating antihistamines that can help short term if you find side effects of anti-D's intolerable. (Not to be taken with other medications like anti depressants or opiates as these will amplify effects and can leave you feeling pretty ill.)

[stopgap]

Sorry, meant to write, at smaller doses Trazadone is used to treat insomnia.

[stopgap]

Yes, Trazadone is prescription-only. At higher levels it's an anti-anxiety medication, but at smaller doses (25-50mg) it is used to treat depression. It's way more effective than Ambien, in my opinion.

Get started on Magnesium, which has a calming effect, and Inositol is fabulous. It is a B-vitamin derivative, and balances blood sugar, but at higher levels it is a natural and very effective way to treat anxiety. If I didn't have my thyroid nonsense getting in the way, I believe that a combination of these two supplements could have aided better sleep.

Like you, I am extremely anxious if I don't sleep. Try going to bed more like 10pm. For the anxious soul, I think it's rather soothing, as your mind tells you that it's okay if you wake early, as you'll still have good sleep under your belt.

I'm in the U.S., so am not sure whether Trazadone is called something else, although I'm 99 percent sure that's the generic name.

Best of luck, OP--it's wretched being an insomniac in a world of mostly decent sleepers.

[Haudyerwheesht]

Sometimes a podcast on YouTube called 'sleep with me' helps. It's a guy with a southern American accent (sounds like Owen Wilson) he kind of just witters on not making sense and it sometimes helps.

Sometimes a really cold shower at bedtime helps too and then getting warm in bed.

[MoneybagsIamnot]

Oh and I exercise daily too, I'm quite sporty.

Is Trazadone prescription only?

I'll reply to everyone else after work. Thank you for all the advice!

[MoneybagsIamnot]

Hello,

Sorry everyone, I’ve had a manic day as expected!

So, I’ll try and answer Q’s. Yes, I am stressed, I am naturally a big worrier (think I suffer with anxiety, always have really but have never been to Drs to get it diagnosed) I really try and not think about stuff when I sleep but sometimes my mind just keeps naturally wandering.

I haven’t tried Chamomile tea, perhaps I’ll give that a shot.

Tried music (tried that last night) it didn’t work, tried audio book, I think that may have worked so I might give it another whirl.

I sleep with the window open. I am a fussy sleeper, I HAVE to have a cold room, eye mask on and ear plugs in as I’m a very light sleeper so the slightest noise, bit of light etc wakes me up.

The one thing I do is panic about not being able to get to sleep which, as PP have suggested, just makes the situation 10 x worse. I also just lie there, I never get up and walk about, read etc. So I will give that a try too.

I don’t drink any caffeine after 2.30 most days

I too have noticed alcohol really affects my sleep so I do NO alcohol now Mon-Friday.

I’m really trying :cries:

[AprilLoveJ]

Sorry op for hijacking thread a little, though some of this info could maybe help you too

[AprilLoveJ]

Just lost my post will start again

I certainly believe that you tried everything - everything you know of. We can only do what we know! Goodness knows how much I wasted on things that didn't work (or that might have, I was just not using them right eg calcium needs D3 and K) Certainly don't feel negative about anything you do, negative thoughts lead to more negative thoughts which lead to depression and more sleep/health issues. Stay positive. Say 'I'm taking this so that I can sleep and feel better and keep my hormones/mood stable'. Always be positive. You're your own best friend. With all the criticism and judgement in the world why make it any harder on yourself I say!

Changing my diet certainly helped massively as my Western diet was making me more ill. Also using some particular supplements. Yet a key player was progesterone therapy. It took me a while to get it right and it really goes hand in hand with diet - I was eating too many grains and not enough protein. I had to up my protein to 130g to start getting results! I also have a poor liver right now so started with a diet of lots of milk, eggs, muscle meats, potatoes and gelatin (granulated form and Great Lakes - 60g a day mixed in tea or milk) and severely restricting grains/gluten as well as fruit and veg and other sugars except a little OJ. I plan to increase my fruit/juice intake and some veg as I improve my liver but I will never go back to surviving on grains again. As I'm taking a lot of progesterone I need the protein to synthesise it. I used to be intolerant to milk until I began drinking it every day. Now I love it and feel great on it. It took a while to get my head around the idea of eating this way after I believed everything I read in health magazines for so many years. But wow was it worth it. I'm still learning as I go along.

You sound very intelligent and clued up so I would say really go at it with Ray's work. It's a lot to take in but when all else has failed there's nothing left to lose. If you join the forum you mayb find lots of help from others on your cortisol and dhea issues. If you google keywords like adrenal fatigue and the thyroid you can read old posts that could be very informative to you. As you know what you are talking about I think it would be safe to guide you to Wray Whytes website too, as you may be able to gauge from that whether you would benefit also from progesterone therapy. You say your hormones are okay but as you have thyroid and pcos issues I'm going to say they may look okay on paper but they are not functioning optimally enough for you to feel good. This is so often the case. In fact blood tests are not always a relianle reflection of our actual hormonal workings. You are better going by symptoms. My hormones showed give yet I was in agony with joint/muscle pain, fatigue, water retention, mood swings, depression, endometriosis, pms, hair problems. All indicative of high estrogen and not enough progesterone suppress it! Yet I was told more or less that half of it was in my head and the other half I was just offered anti depressants for (and not a mention of vitamin d3 in sight!) Pcos is a disease related to high estrogen. In fact many diseases are related to an excess of estrogen and there are now studies surfacing providing more evidence of this. For years women were given estrogen as the only form of hormone replacement therapy, without any progesterone to counteract or balance it at all! Today more doctors are getting clued up and beginning to understand the importance of this hormone, however you're unlikely to find that in your local gp (such is my experience) As the thyroid and progesterone are linked (they boost each other) I would think this is an area worth looking into. Sometimes taking progesterone in a high enough dose can help the thyroid but it seems that any serious thyroid issue needs addressing more directly (although there's no harm in still doing progesterone therapy of course).

I still struggle with cortisol and serotonin levels (I had suicidal thoughts in the past when my brain chemistry went completely crazy - it even happened right after I conceived) yet my moods and depression is so much better now just from all the changes I've already made. I also struggle with hypothyroidism - im fairly new to the game and I understand that it took years for me to get sick so will take years to get better - however I've already made huge accomplishments within a year. I'm confident I can keep uncovering the answers whether its via nutrition or medication. I came to Ray late and didn't start gaining benefit from things until I understood that my body works as a whole and everything I do matters, and that I need to understand how it works before claiming nothing works for me. I really underestimated diet for example. Your diet sounds good but maybe like me you're just missing a few things without realising. We can't do what we don't know. I'd say post your thyroid panel on the forum so you can get some better advice, and see what medication changes you can make. Maybe tweaking them will help you. There's a reason for everything that is happening to you, it's just discovering what that is. Not easy I know, sometimes it feels hopeless but stay positive. The good news is you're still young enough to turn things around, and Peat says something along the lines of how when given the right environment the body has the ability to heal. Don't give up

[MrsK]

Backs flower remedy, White Chestnut works for calming the mind. It really helps from thought traffic going round in my head. Also, second a podcast I put a headphone in one ear & drift off. There's no such thing as a fish podcast works for me. I think my brain has accustomed itself to their voices, had a long snooze on a plane recently listening to them