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AIBU?

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Original poster

AIBU to be feeling so hurt and angry about these comments?

101 replies

TFletchersWife · 14/06/2016 09:23

My local town has created a Facebook event to hold a candlelight vigil for those lost in the Orlando massacre.

A lday has come onto the group and made the following comments;

Please don't misunderstand me when I say this. As all my Gay friends know, I love you all, and stand with you by your side against homophobia! However, there are thousands of Christians being murdered for their faith all over the world. Targeted for their way of life, men, women and children murdered and slaughtered for what they believe on a daily basis. LGBT are not the only group of people being targeted! Who's standing with us? Who is changing the colour of their profile pages to show their support. It goes un posted, and it goes unshared

Some people have said her comments are cold and she should simply remove herself from the group, rather than argue on this LGBT page.

She has now said

I am as hurt by what has happened as all of you. And most of those involved were Christian. I am simply saying that this is a crime against Humanity. There is no need to single out one community

I am absolutely livid. I am also trying to think of a response that doesn't come across as angry as I am.

I don't know whether I am overreacting and should just keep my mouth shut or whether I should tell her to f*ck off.

Even had a little cry in the car this morning.

Why are some people so cold?

I appreciate her views but to come on to a facebook page specifically to remember these people is just goady

OP posts:
scallopsrgreat · 14/06/2016 14:26

Whathaveilost - I think you are uncomfortable with it because it is naming the problem and the problem is that violence is perpetrated against the LGBT community because of who they are.

"when I see it as a bigger picture which is an attack on a lifestyle certain groups don't want to have. In otherwords it's an attack on lifestyle in general and lifestyle of Westerners." Except it wasn't that. And the fact that you cite media reports calling them perverts also adds testament to the fact it's because of who they are.

It is uncomfortable to shine a light on predjudice and oppression but that is exactly why the light needs shining on it. To tackle it. If you can't name it for what it is how are you going to sort it out by putting it under the umbrella "lifestyle of Westerners"?

ScreenshottingIsNotJournalism · 14/06/2016 14:30

Dacc, it's not "history" though, that's the problem, violence in the name of christ still happens today.

I was objecting to it being phrased in such a way as to imply it is not a problem in current times, which is wrong.

blindsider · 14/06/2016 14:35

I think anyone suggesting this is an Islamist attack on humanity is reaching. This guy (a muslim) either through fanatical ideology (imo unlikely he just knew by banging on about ISIS he would get more publicity) or due to self loathing as he was a repressed homosexual has clearly targeted this nightclub as it was a GAY nightclub.

JassyRadlett · 14/06/2016 14:50

I am, I think, a bit uncomfortable with it being highlighted as an attack on LGBT people, which it is when I see it as a bigger picture which is an attack on a lifestyle certain groups don't want to have.

The difference is that the victims of this shooting were all members of a discrete minority group already that has been harassed, discriminated against and attacked an awful lot. They were targeted because of their sexuality.

There really isn't a comparison with 'people who like a certain kind of music'.

DaemonPantalaemon · 14/06/2016 16:13

The difference is that the victims of this shooting were all members of a discrete minority group already that has been harassed, discriminated against and attacked an awful lot. They were targeted because of their sexuality

There is now some evidence to suggest that it may be much more complex than that hatred of gay people drove the shooter. That in fact, if hatred was the motivation, it was self-hatred. There are various reports in the press that the shooter may have been gay himself. Here are three.

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/14/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-was-a-regular-at-nightclub

www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-nightclub-shooting-20160613-snap-story.html

www.nydailynews.com/news/national/orlando-shooter-reported-pulse-club-regular-patrons-article-1.2672445

Whathaveilost · 14/06/2016 16:47

Whathaveilost - I think you are uncomfortable with it because it is naming the problem and the problem is that violence is perpetrated against the LGBT community because of who they are.

Blimey, I'm reading that as if you are making me sound homophobic!

What I was trying to say, and I did say I couldn't articulate it well, is that if attacks are named into sub groups. Eg homophobic , anti sematic etc it's almost as if, as some said before , the population is 'us and others'. Initial when there was reports that there was IS links I understood why the club and this community was targeted however reports of his association with IS are now mixed with some saying he didn't have links at all.

The difference is that the victims of this shooting were all members of a discrete minority group already that has been harassed, discriminated against and attacked an awful lot. They were targeted because of their sexuality.

There really isn't a comparison with 'people who like a certain kind of music'.
When there was talk about IS involvement my thought about the above the people attending TEoDM concert at the Bataclan was targeted to make a statement of their lifestyle that IS won't tolerate. The attack at Pulse was against a community that IS won't tolerate either
However as I said the reports have now changedwith IS involvement.

BillSykesDog · 14/06/2016 16:50

Dacc, it's not "history" though, that's the problem, violence in the name of christ still happens today.

So basically you're justifying the persecution of Christians today, which is much more widespread than that of any religious group, which is verging on genocide and is already ethnic-religious cleansing, is okay, because somebody somewhere did something else? On a much, much smaller scale?

Do you normally check the history of each murder victims religion or ethics before deciding whether they're worth bothering about?

SolidGoldBrass · 14/06/2016 16:54

When the first reports started appearing, I thought it was quite likely that the perpetrator might be a Christian. America does, after all, have a lot of violent right-wing Christian groups with access to weaponry, who make no secret of their homophobia.

If a violent, bigoted man attacked a synagogue, would there be as much resistance to the idea of naming this as anti-semitism as there has been in naming the Orlando murders as an attack on LGBTQ people, specifically?

Whathaveilost · 14/06/2016 16:55

Whathaveilost - I think you are uncomfortable with it because it is naming the problem and the problem is that violence is perpetrated against the LGBT community because of who they are.

Blimey, I'm reading that as if you are making me sound homophobic
The more I have read your comment the more upset I am. My point was trying to be united against attacks rather than individual sections standing up alone.

Whathaveilost · 14/06/2016 16:57

I bet Westboro Methodist are loving this attack. Over 50 LGBT people dead and they aren't getting the blame for it!

Original poster
TFletchersWife · 14/06/2016 16:58

A facebook vigil group in a 'local town' - so, everyone is distraught, but not distraught enough to go out and hold a vigil in person

The group is to arrange the event which takes place this evening in a public place - not on Facebook.

I think that my original post has been misunderstood.

Nowehere in my ORIGINAL post did I state that I disagreed with what this woman was saying. My disappointment was at the fact she chose to join the group purely to say what she did. This is actually mentioned in the last sentence of my OP.

12 years ago my cousin was the victim of a hate crime due to his sexuality. He was beaten to death just for being gay. I am also gay. Apologies if the subject of hate towards homosexuals makes me emotional.

I don't think that any group of people is less important than the other. I'm not sure why everyone seems to think I do

OP posts:
ScreenshottingIsNotJournalism · 14/06/2016 17:01

So basically you're justifying the persecution of Christians today

I'm not justifying any of it. It's just a fact that actively violent Christian hate groups exist in the present tense, it's not "history" nor is it on a small scale.

TulipsInAJug · 14/06/2016 17:03

She was right. Christians are slaughtered every day for their faith and get no publicity.

But she was crass to make her point at this time, in that place.

Whathaveilost · 14/06/2016 17:04

I don't think that any group of people is less important than the other. I'm not sure why everyone seems to think I do
I don't think one group of people or community is more important than another.
I'm sorry about your cousin. My friend was involved in a similar attack a few years ago and suffered life changing injuries.

BillSykesDog · 14/06/2016 17:14

You are justifying it Screenshot

You were replying to a comment about a post which justified attacks on Christians:

Poster 1: You might also remind her of all the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people who've been tortured and murdered over the centuries in the name of Christ

Poster 2: Can you or anyone explain to me what, if any, the relevance of this statement has today?

You: Because it still happens, particularly in America! there are violent groups in America that do it "in the name of Christ.

And regardless, the things you're talking about (wrong though they may be) are absolutely tiny, miniscule when compared to the level of international persecution of Christians.

ScreenshottingIsNotJournalism · 14/06/2016 17:18

I'm not justifying any of it. And I don't think any violent deaths can be considered "small scale".

I object to the idea that violence in the name of Christ is a thing of the past. That in no way justifies violence against Christians.

amazingtracy · 14/06/2016 17:23

I think that there are a shit load of people on social media just logging on to literally 'click and like' their condemnation. It's shallow and populist for the majority. Very few of the 'we are orlando' army even aware that gay people are being thrown off buildings in other parts of the world.

I abhor violence and hatred towards all peoples.

Sara107 · 14/06/2016 18:51

OP, reading your last post about your cousin, I can really understand why you are particularly upset about this crime, it was a homophobic attack and you are empathising with the victims and their families. Having been violently bereaved yourself it probably stirs up old feelings. You are not at all unreasonable to be feeling upset, and this probably rendered you more vulnerable to being upset by this woman's comments. Why on earth would she bother to go onto your page to make a comment like that? Nobody was trying to force her to go and do a vigil. There is a real attitude of begrudery and whataboutery that some people have, as if you shouldn't give to a particular charity because what about x, y or z charity, and you shouldn't care about a particular atrocity because it wasn't 'as bad' as some other atrocity. I think it's just a way of justifying not caring (I'm not going to put a flag on my fb page because Nobody was putting up flags for such and such, sounds better than ' because I actually don't really give a crap').

SolidGoldBrass · 14/06/2016 20:22

It's also worth bearing in mind that, while some Christians are genuinely persecuted for being Christians, which is terrible, there are some Christians who claim 'persecution' when what they mean is 'not getting special treatment'. And, more importantly: some Christians vigorously persecute others (like LGBTQ people, non-Christians, women who insist on bodily autonomy, etc) but you'd have to do an awful lot of digging to find an example of any LGBTQ individuals carrying out mass murder on people purely because those people were hetcis or religious.

scallopsrgreat · 14/06/2016 22:19

I really wasn't suggesting you were homophobic, Whathaveilost. I was saying it is uncomfortable to recognise discrimination against a category of people. I don't think that is an unusual feeling. It isn't nice to recognise prejudice. It always makes you think 'who thinks of me like that'?

"Eg homophobic , anti sematic etc it's almost as if, as some said before , the population is 'us and others'. " But that is exactly what the shooter thought. They were "others". Not the same as him. Not quite as worthy. Not quite as human. That's why he felt entitled to shoot them. That's how oppression works - 'othering' people. Naming that as the problem isn't othering them - it is recognising the reality of how the shooter saw the world.

MadamDeathstare · 14/06/2016 22:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Raider · 14/06/2016 22:42

Quick question sorry- what is a facebook vigil? I don't have facebook, do you mean an ' in the market sq vigil organised via Facebook or an event where everybody logs onto facebook at the same time in a group?

Raider · 14/06/2016 22:44

Sorry ignore just seen update

BillSykesDog · 14/06/2016 22:59

It's also worth bearing in mind that, while some Christians are genuinely persecuted for being Christians, which is terrible, there are some Christians who claim 'persecution' when what they mean is 'not getting special treatment'

Can you expand on that and source it please?

How dare a religion ask for special treatment like state organisations catering to their special diet, special allowances at work and in education for religious practices like fasting or praying. Oh.

littlejeopardy · 14/06/2016 23:09

So sorry for your loss OP. I think this woman lacked real empathy to comment what she did. I am a Christian and know that Christians are being persecuted in parts of the world but that doesn't diminish or grief over hate crimes directed at someone else.

ISIS sees everyone who is different as an enemy. When we mourn collectively we undermine that hatred.