To think I'm not "lucky" because DP does an equal share of childcare?

[SamanthaBrique]

Isn't that how it should be? Women shouldn't consider themselves "lucky" to have a partner who helps out - shouldn't that be the norm?

I was talking to two friends recently - one has two children, is a SAHM and from day 1 her DH has not lifted a finger to help with the kids or around the house. He "works very hard" during the week so that means he has to spend his weekends relaxing and pursuing his hobbies (rather than spending time with his children) while she never gets a break. She works pretty damn hard too, to raise two children during the week yet is lucky if she gets half an hour in Asda by herself, and if she needs anything she has to ask him for money as they don't have a joint bank account.

Other friend (WOHM 4 days a week) has a DP who works once a fortnight, looks after their DD once a week and she goes to nursery on the other 3 days my friend works. Yet if their DD is ill my friend has to take time off work as her DP refuses to look after her. Likewise at weekends he refuses to do childcare and he doesn't help out around the house either as he's very busy watching TV or playing computer games. He isn't exactly a cocklodger as he's independently well-off, but if my friend ever asks him to do more than his allocated day of childcare he points out that she's the one who wanted a child, not him, so she has to deal with it!

I really don't understand how some men can be like this, and it saddens me that their partners think it normal and that they just have to put up with it.

My Mum always said, "you get what you settle for" and I think that's right.

We need to stop 'settling' and raise our daughters never to settle.

My DPs are in their seventies and my Dad did work longer hours than Mum so more of the household stuff fell to her but whenever he was home he was fully engaged with us and did a share of housework. (Nothing wrong with his brain). He always appreciated everything Mum
Did and brought us up to appreciate it too. He regularly took us all off on adventures to give her a break.

I measure all men against my very fabulous Dad, not that many stack up.

It's always annoyed me too. If my father inthe 1960s could be equally involved with us and my children's father 30 years ago then I don't see why men in 2016 can't do as much as women at home!

I have mixed feelings about this. I think you are lucky that your DH can help out a lot. My DH helps out when he can but unfortunately due to his job he has never been around. It's improved now that the kids are older and stay up later but he hardly used to see them when they were babies. He used to leave for work before 6am and arrive home after 7pm. However, when he is around he does as much as he can to help. He brings me coffee in bed in the morning because he knows that I have to get the kids ready for school, etc. He makes cups of tea and snacks in the evening because I am the the one that deals with the kids after school etc. I do have friends who think I'm lucky to get the morning coffee but it's his way of saying that he appreciates that I do more of the childcare.

I think it's pretty depressing for women nowadays. I know very few relationships where family life is shared 50-50. In the vast majority that I know, women are working part-time & doing all the childcare/household admin. Their partners just seem to work & have very few (if any) family responsibilities.

I think it all harks back to the pay gap. Until we have equal pay, men aren't going to be asking for flexible working, so it falls to women to pick up the slack.

And we need to stop infantilising men, shrugging our shoulders when they don't step up to pulling their weight.

And most important of all, teach our DC about equality, not settling, stepping up.

I know this raises a wider issue - and that is interesting and worthy of discussion but don't judge another's relationships. You never know what is involved .

We may all have our views on how we think it should be but individuals choose to live with others on their own terms. I would hate to think that my friends judged my relationship in that way.

My friends probably don't of course but others will happily be judging my house, my clothes, my job, my relationship, my kids my parenting - in fact every choice I make.

Nothing wrong with judging - natural and essential to navigating life. But don't think that you are superior because your relationship is "better" than someone else's. You really have no idea.

I think this is one advantage of both working full time, you have to both agree to share the load at home re house work.

So how did my mother get the idea that it's normal for men not to do childcare or housework?

A good chunk of what we internalise as "normal" comes not from our immediate families but from all the other people in the world that we see. It wasn't normal for men to do housework or childcare.

It's the women who allow it to happen that are also twats.

Please don't ever click on any threads about domestic violence if that's how you feel.

BlueJug, what I said in my OP is based on what my friends have actually said about their partners. If they didn't complain then I'd think their situations were not what I wanted but if they were happy then fair enough. But clearly they are not happy.

And I am quite comfortable with judging men who sit on their arses and don't help out with childcare or housework, thanks.

Well you make your own luck I suppose. But until you have children it's impossible to know just how much work it is, and how it forces increased domesticity on you. A partnership that seemed balanced before can become unbalanced by the extra burden, which through circumstance falls mainly on the mother who is at home more in the beginning.

SamanthaBrique

As long as you are equally happy judging men or women who earn significantly less than their partner, are significantly better or more poorly educated, work significantly more or fewer hours, or are dramatically more or less fit.

The argument over whether men should do 50% of the housework is just stupid if that man is working 16 hours a day/ 80 hours a week.

It is just as stupid as saying a woman should contribute £100k a year to the family funds even though she is working two mornings a week as an assistant in the local library.

Pick one thing and judge in isolation - stupid - look at the whole picture - fine.

If your friends are unhappy -that's between them and their friends to discuss - as you said.

I do agree that it's a fathers responsibility not a favour but I recognise I come from a place where my dh is supportive and does the childcare when he can

A friend was recently blown away as my dh gets up for work at 3.30 am and comes in at 7.30 pm and I mentioned that the first thing he does is take the 6 month old from me to give me a break , he also puts the 3 year old to bed and on weekends we take turns having a lie in

I mentioned to dh her shock that he "helped " so much and he snorted and said " Errm I'm fairly sure I remember being there when they were made so why the fucking wouldn't I be there to care for them " swiftly followed by his comments that can't be repeated on the laziness of her dh

But I obviously do the night feedings especially as I'm on maternity leave and probably will when I go back full time in a few weeks but dh will step up with other stuff like house cleaning

Saying that ....equal works for us....I'm a bit bolshy and won't accept anything else but I do have friends who prefer to be in charge of the childcare etc ...and I think fair enough....what works for you is that , you do you

It only becomes an issue if someone complains or is not happy and then frankly you're opening yourself up to comments

Sadly the only logical end to this is that both men and women live apart - each doing 100% of their own domestic work with 100% of the money they earn and the kids spend 50% of their time with each parent. All clothes, trips and fees paid for out of a fund to which each parent contributes exactly the same amount.

My relationship went wrong although we remain on terms - but not because of that. When I earned more, he did the childcare. When I had DC2 I stopped work and he worked away from home earning the money to keep us and when he came home his time was his own although he saw the DC. When he was made redundant we used all my savings and earnings to keep afloat - he did all the school runs and the Sunday family time so I could catch up. When he became ill I took on both roles - earning and domestic. Never once did we have a balance sheet of who contributed how much and who was "lazy" and should have done more.

Individual relationships are all just that.

Really not sure how you extrapolated that from my examples. Surely it isn't too much to ask for a man to look after his children one day a week to give his wife a break?

Those of us who both work full time don't tend to have these issue. I earned many times what my other half did too - it probably comes down to the simple point that money is power and women get ni abad position when they earn less. So always encourage your daughters into those high paying careers so they can swan off toe hotels on business whilst the husband is rushing home as he earns less and therefore has to make up for it by washing more clothes at home and the like.

Simple solution for many women now that 70% of graduates are female is never give up full time work and never tolerate sexism even for a day. I just cannot understand how women do - why not the very first time you stay over and he suggests you cook and he doesn't or he drives and you don't you don't suggest a more equal way of doing tings and ditch him for a better man if he turns out to be a sexist pig on the first few dates.

Totally with you OP. It makes me do a cats bum mouth when people on a night out say their husband's are 'babysitting'. Inevitably people start cooing over how 'lucky' said woman is.

I highly doubt when men are at the pub they tell their mates that their wife is 'babysitting'. Of course not, it's a forgone conclusion that 'er indoors will have the kids while his life carries on as normal

Theoretician - that's exactly my point.

LaserShark - and you make a good point. Most relationships run like that until someone gets dissatisfied and starts counting the "nights out" and the number of time "he" cooks. Mine was like that. We both did what we could when we could.

I'm sorry but it's complete rubbish that you need to be in full time work....ive been both and dh s attitude has never wavered ....in a few weeks I'll be by far the higher earner and have much more earning potential than dh ....however for a year I've been at home for some of that recently unemployed through no fault of my own and not once has dh wavered

Women should not have to work to be treated with respect .... many suffragettes were not working women but they sure as he'll got respect

DP and I work full time so we pretty much do equal childcare. I do understand that this is not possible for everyone but i don't think it's asking too much for a father to look after his kids for a few hours at the weekend so a SAHM can get some time to herself.

There's also an interesting conversation to be had about what constitutes "hard work". We always hear about men working hard, but being a SAHM can be bloody hard work too. Why is the caring work that women do so devalued? Friend 1's husband thinks he's entitled to a whole day to pursue his hobby because he puts in long hours at the office, but he doesn't stop to think how exhausting caring for two toddlers can be and that perhaps his wife needs a break too.

It's not about keeping a balance sheet of who does what, it's about not being a twat and caring about your partner.

You're right OP, your way is how it should be but it's lucky in your friends eyes because they have it so shit. I'm a SAHM so expect to do the majority of everything, but DP is there to help whenever I need it and does things without asking. Fortunately the attitude is changing slowly, when I think of all the parents I know (all from different backgrounds) the dads are very actively involved. The sooner it is seen as the norm the better and then your friends might realise how shit they have it. I think the next generation will be great because most of us parents are teaching and showing our kids that the genders are equal.

I remember taking dd to my fil's 60th birthday party when Dd was about 8 weeks old. At one point dh was holding her and all the older women were cooing saying "he's so good with her, look how he's so confident with her." I was . He's her father and has had precisely as much parenting experience as me.

You are 'lucky' in the context of the norm. But it fundamentally shouldn't be considered something lucky.

paddypants Weird isn't it.. I thought that reaction was strange until I met my FIL, who has 5 kids and never changed a nappy in his life/fed them/played with them. I get a bit of a kick seeing him see his sons and sons in laws all hands on with their kids and wonder what he's thinking!

I hear a lot of that in older generations. Thankfully it wasn't everyone, my old dad did as much as my mum back in the 70s.

Well you are lucky insofar as he is willing. Generally nobody knows what sort of mother/father their partner will be ahead of having a child.

Initially my husband tried to do the "oh I'm a man I don't know what I'm doing" card and I wasn't having it. It was a very short lived thing.

Although DH is fab in all other respects, the time he does pull the "I don't know what I'm doing" card is when I ask him to dress DS. He's happy to do it but asks me to lie out an outfit as he doesn't know what to dress him in. This is coming from a grown man who manages to dress himself every day, and DS's clothes aren't vastly different to his.

To be fair though the one time he did pick out DS's outfit he ended up looking like a mismatched bag of shite

This is quite depressing reading.

I think it is a widespread attitude that men get away with doing far less. My DH has quite insane hours but he agrees that is often the easier bit - he gets away from the house, talks to grown ups in akin he loves and doesn't have to suffer a career break. He realises he needs to do his share (less than mine though as I'm at home on maternity leave).

He does loads of the childcare when he can. I feel I can't mention it to some mum friends that he does stuff because I feel like I'm bragging! I always get the same stories that their partners do nothing.

Also MIL obviously think I'm incredibly lucky that he can wash up and change a nappy.

Judgement, not luck I think. Though maybe luck that I had a gone sense of what a partner should be like and self respect to expect equality. And I don't mean this as victim blaming - some people don't have good relationship models for a range of reasons.