Scrapping Tuition Fees

[fifi69]

AIBU to not understand why young people are not up in arms about tuition fees? I think young people have been screwed over by the government with regard to tuition fees, maintenance grant for poorer students and the compound interest that will be accrued on these loans. And yet I haven't seen many student demonstrations. I'm baffled as to why young people seem resigned to their fate. I'm not saying I was a firebrand when I was young, but I went on the Poll Tax riot and at least that worked!

newbrummie do you also do OSCEs? I was helping a STN revise for his when he came on a 'spoke' with me and I was surprised at the content he had to learn. Extremely in depth pathophysiology and medical and nursing management of a range of conditions.

Oh sorry I didn't realise the thread was nursing specific .... No I'm not a medic at all, hats off to all of them, the nurses I know are like mini doctors, some might say better, they know where the decimal point goes so not to kill people

"I find it odd the students don't demonstrate about many things. "

Kids are absolutely beaten down these days not to question anything, my child has attended private school for most of her career but we fell on hard times and now she's in the local catholic school due to it being the best state in the area.
She tried to engage the RE teacher in debate and was literally told agree with me or leave the school. No discussion, no educated opinions allowed etc. My kids literally shit themselves if they are late in the morning, it's all about controlling them and making them comply without question, it's awful tbh, no wonder nobody protests an arrest and a criminal record is almost guaranteed these days.

People in this country are incredibly apathetic. Even more so when it's the next generation who will suffer. I've grumbled about student fees on Mumsnet, and everyone tells me they're fine, the students will probably never actually have to pay them back, I'm fussing about nothing, etc.

I agree Newbrummie, they are being taught to fall in, not think for themselves and I would suggest a heavily left propaganda element to it all.

Hence no demos about Eu.

leave you find this generally in RL too though, there is a strong "oh well you cant do anything about it" attitude.

I have had many times to do something about something and also heard this hopelessness " oh you cant do anything" well ....I have!

NB if you are concerned about uni fees, then VOTE IN! - I'd love my dcs to study abroad, but if we leave the EU there is no chance of them being able to afford to.

oh sorry newbrummie my fault, I had assumed you were replying to me or lavender.

Fewer poor students go to university in Scotland where there are no tuition fees.
It's not unfair that students should pay for tuition. A graduate tax would have been fairer. I'm more worried about the lack of maintenance grants and low maintenance loans.

I agree that young people are apathetic re protests. I am currently a mature student studying social work, a profession rooted in social justice. I was president of a society and my committee members were not interested in anything outside of their timetabled lectures. Their lack of passion, drive and values drove me to distraction.

Suchafuss, you wait til you get to work, you'll be heart broken, I was seeing a SW until recently and he quit because basically the people that got promoted were the ones that closed cases, whether the job was done or not you have to get through a certain amount every month. People used to be scared of SS, not these days you can't get them to commit to a decision if their lives depended on it !

I know you guys are fussed about specific job titles having a narrow definition.
But if someone provides me nursing care, I'm going to think of them as a nurse. Whether their actual title is AP or HCA or something else. They are still "a nurse" to me. I would even use that title if it was just a loving friend volunteering to regularly help me with personal care. I suppose that same title goes for care workers, as well. You guys can argue over specific job titles, it's not going to be relevant to me as a patient.

Apocalypse this is exactly the issue being discussed here www.mumsnet.com/Talk/scotsnet/2647706-Shockerooney-the-poor-dont-benefit-from-having-their-university-fees-paid?pg=2

If you read my comments and the article Hirples linked to you will see that it is far from clear that participation rates from lower demographics are lower in Scotland.

One of the biggest problems with student loans for fees is that they are effectively a fraudulent way of keeping a colossal debt off the government's books, since they expect only around 45% of loans ever to be repaid - in other words, a huge off balance sheet debt for future generations.

A much worse problem than tuition fees is the maintenance loan, which is fixed at far too low a level. In my DD's case, even if she got the full means tested loan it would not cover the cost of the accommodation - let alone food.

So poorer students have to go to the university closer to their home, or work during term time (banned at her university).

If making students go to the closest university to your home is the policy aim, then governments should be honest about it. Unfortunately however, there is a 'market' in universities in our country with some being 'worth' more than others.

One reason why students are less likely to protest is the internet footprint that they leave behind. You really can't afford to stand out as a 'troublemaker' now that it is so easy for prospective employers to search your history. Eg student leaders are, effectively, making a lifelong commitment - no reversals allowed anymore, sadly. The safest position to take is neutral.

Also the universities themselves can't be trusted. For example as I recall, cambridge sent down the leader of the 'call and response' fees protest against david willets even though he was half way through a phd.

Free education until 23 was a blip in history due to boom of 70s. I doubt it will ever be repeated. Its hard to see how any future society could fund 50% of adults being educated into their early 20s. I got a free university education in the 1980s. It was quite nice but mostly a waste of time, and I pity the poor folk who paid for it with their taxes. Unless my son (1) wanted to do a serious vocational degree or (2) was truly gifted and motivated in a subject I think its a total self-indulgent waste of time! IMO young people could be doing so much more interesting stuff than hanging round a student block, bar or library for 3 years, so much more. Its a shame OU degrees are not more accessible though - last time I looked I thought they seemed very expensive.

If it wasn't for no tuition fees and getting a grant I wouldn't have gone to uni in the late 90's (first in family to go). My upbringing was kinda strict so was expected to join forces if didn't go as no decent post 16 jobs for anyone with half a brain locally.

The NUS have been so feeble over the issue to be embarrassing over the years.

Well you're going to have a problem with expectations if you do feel that way lljkk. And that may be where your problem has lied in your perception of the care you received.

You may be quick to label anyone who does the slightest bit of care a 'nurse', but nursing is very different to caring and unfortunately a lot of people like yourself don't seen the difference.

It's not an argument over job titles, it's a fact. Nurses are registered by the Nursing and Midwifery Council. If they're not on that they're not a nurse.

Maybe I have realistic expectations about what human beings can do rather than entitled expectations about what job titles mean and needing someone to blame the instant something goes wrong (like some British people seem to like to do!). Just a thought. ;-)

Lljfk, funny how some people thing nursing isn't primarily about care. Perhaps they should have technicians and nurses.

I'm a uni lecturer at a Scottish university. I'm opposed to fees in theory, but I would much rather see money put into 'saving' the NHS than removing fees.

As for no fees in Scotland....many universities up here are close to financial collapse. The situation is utterly dire and many of my colleagues are trying to escape to England. I hate the thought of it, but I think the only realistic way forward is to charge fees here. Of course, it will never happen as the SNP would rather run universities into the ground than admit they were wrong.

Apologies for the brief post. I'm mid-bath time.

Graduate tax sounds fairer, but even those who favoured it (lib dems?. Ed mil at one stage? ) just couldn't get round the problem that people who work abroad, emigrate, eu nationals who return home, don't pay it - so it always comes baxk to loans . Because you are liable to repay the loan wherever you go - although of course there are enforcement problems, you remain liable for all arrears as well.
I think a pp made a good point - few people who have paid (or whose dc have paid) 9000 a year will support it becoming free again unless the 9krs debt is written off as well - the chances of which are nil. I hadn't thought of that but the longer they remain, the less political pressure to change them - until the 9krs have their own teenage dc i suppose!
And yes there is a lot of 'the loans don't matter because you'll never pay it back' type talk. I think that is slightly confusing - once earning over 21k you will pay a substantial amount back, but you may well never succeed in paying off the loan because of the compound interest. It is in no way the 'free money' it is sometimes thought to be. An extra 9% tax on anything over 21 k would cause outrage if it were applied to all taxpayers. But if it applies to former students, that is minimised as 'oh you'll never have to pay it all back'.

Lljkk - perhaps if you saw it from the otherside you'd understand more. Obviously nursing is about caring, but there's a vast difference between modern day care roles and modern day nurse roles. Whether that suits your own idea is another thing entirely. But unfortunately nurses are now responsible for many roles that were once the roles of doctors, and a lot of the hands on more basic care has been delegated to the very skilled HCAs. You're trying to make out like it's about elitism or entitlement. It isn't.

Unless the government pull their heads out of their arses and realise that education is a right, not a luxury and gives the funding back to the universities, it would be impossible for the tuition fees to be scrapped.

Universities depend on the tuition fees entirely for them to operate, why do you think there is so much emphasis on clearing (for those who didn't achieve their predicted grades, late applicants etc) as more students means a bigger budget.

For example as I recall, cambridge sent down the leader of the 'call and response' fees protest against david willets even though he was half way through a phd.

No, Owen Holland was suspended. The original suspension was for 7 terms (which was considered ridiculous by most of the university) and it was revised down to 1 term, i.e. a 10 week suspension. Many (most?) academics supported no suspension at all.

He was also not suspended for opposing the tuition fees, but for his manner in doing so. Nobody has been suspended for e.g. protesting outside the Houses of Parliament, writing to MPs, going on protest marches.