Scrapping Tuition Fees

[fifi69]

AIBU to not understand why young people are not up in arms about tuition fees? I think young people have been screwed over by the government with regard to tuition fees, maintenance grant for poorer students and the compound interest that will be accrued on these loans. And yet I haven't seen many student demonstrations. I'm baffled as to why young people seem resigned to their fate. I'm not saying I was a firebrand when I was young, but I went on the Poll Tax riot and at least that worked!

It's not regressive, if it means that pointless degrees are basically got rid of - meedya studies springs to mind. What's the point of getting into debt for a degree which is not going to help you get into a career you're interested in, or going to benefit you in some way longer term?

How would you go about deciding which places to cut?

The logical thing would be to cut those which have the lowest grades to get in or the lowest rates of graduates in graduate jobs, but I would put money on those being the courses and institutions which have higher proportions of students coming from lower income and ethnically diverse backgrounds, so good luck getting that one past the media without outcry.

Or you could cut 20% of places from all courses across the board. Which would presumably lead to 20% more competition for places and therefore inflation of the grades needed to get in. Which would disproportionately favour those coming from private and selective schools with outstanding A-level grades. So good luck getting that past the media without outcry

Or you can discourage school leavers from applying, by encouraging companies to offer more good jobs to those without degrees. Then you are the governement which oversaw a massive drop in the amount of skilled graduates entering the workforce and will be accused of such by the opposition party. Again, good luck not being accused of being hugely regressive in the media and having a stat dredged up about A.N.Other third world country having better university attendance than the UK

It's not regressive to limit the number of places. I'm from a family who had little and we got good enough grades to go to uni having gone to very ordinary comp. Back in the 80s. We didn't have the burden of debt at tbe end. We need decent alternatives to uni as I suggested up thread. And fewer uni students.

I'm wondering exactly where the OP was six years ago when the students were protesting? How did anyone miss that

I was vaguely aware of protests however, I had a 3 year old at the time - taking up my time. However, increasingly, fees have inflated considerably from 6 years ago and there is also the compound interest and changing the terms of agreement on loans which I've read about recently. Goal posts moving....

I agree lavender - good alternatives to uni. I've come across some very disillusioned graduates who've been sold by the university dream - imagining they'll be beating off employers with a stick for the best jobs and then ended up in a call centre.

You've just reminded me, dd1 received a letter from Student loans today which said she has to pay back the loan if she earns £17,495+. I thought it was £21,000. Does anyone know if this is correct?

Ok, taking media studies as your example
here is a list of the best ranked unis offer a course in media studies

Looking at the worst ranked for graduate prospects, ie the most logical one to cull, 40% of the university's students are from ethnic minorities. That's over 7000 students in one university.
In comparison, over the entire Russell Group of 24 universities, just 2,740 black students were admitted in 2015, and that is after a massive push to increase applications from black students

So you really think your plan isn't regressive?

Myth busting:

The hike from £3k to £9k was announced about 6 years ago. It came into being 4 years ago. And there were massive amounts of protests, so it's really unfair of you to accuse students of being apathetic just because you didn't notice.

Fees have REPLACED government funding for pretty much all English universities. Not one is raking it in as a result.

The media industry is one of the fastest growing in the UK.

Interest rates on loans are exactly as the terms and conditions stated.

In a few years time the Teaching Excellence Framework will in all likelihood include salary data of graduates. So if you think of university purely in terms of financial investment shame on you you'll be able to do so to your hearts content.

I will leave university with 50-60k worth debt and I will never pay it back. I don't get what the government is getting from this? most people will never repay their university debt.

Rebecca - you'll pay back some of it. If the government funded you entirely they would be £40k worse off. If you only pay back half then they've only spent £20k on you so a saving.

If there were no tuition fees who would pay?

Well sixth form education is free for everyone. You could use the same logic of "someone must pay" to apply fees to post-16 education too. And then to secondary education...

I think higher education should be free of charge to anyone who wants it and is eligible. It is in Scotland so why not in England.

As to whether to choose free healthcare rather than free education - having free healthcare has led to us being utterly complacent and overly demanding. But that's another thread.

Myth busting back at ya
I never accused students of being apathetic - I asked if they were!
Changing terms of student loans: www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/borrowing/loans/12049856/Martin-Lewis-tackles-Government-over-student-loans.html
Also you don't have to have a degree to get into the media and I am not a person who believes people should do a degree purely for financial reasons.
Spare - You decided those universities would be the ones to cull - I certainly wouldn't suggest making it more difficult for ethnic minorities. I am in favour of creating more equality not decreasing it. How that is attained is the conundrum. Bit goady I think.

Ridiculously, the government has insisted that fees are justified because graduates will earn more than non-graduates. However the salary at which you start to repay loans is barely more than the proposed Living (ie minimum) wage for 2020 (9/hr).

I think higher education should be free of charge to anyone who wants it and is eligible

This. A thousand times.

having free healthcare has led to us being utterly complacent and overly demanding.

One of the most valuable lessons I have had in life came from the director of a small company I worked for, as he sighed, and re-arranged a salesmans quote. The grumble was that people think "free" equals "costs nothing". So by including "free training" at £0 we had no lever with the customer. However, if you reduce the main item by £1,000 and then add "Training £1,000 .... discount £1,000" (so the total is the same) then you have demonstrated a cost - something of value.

The problem with the NHS, and pre-degree education to a lesser extent is that it's perceived as "free" and therefore "of no value". Which explains the way some people waste both.

Nothing anywhere is free. Someone is always paying.

I was really heartened today to hear from a friend that their child is starting an apprenticeship when they leave school. They will become highly skilled in an area they are passionate about and earning some money right from the start. I have no idea why good apprenticeships are not pushed so much harder.

You may not have intended to be goady, but as soon as you talk about reducing the numbers going to university you talk about reducing the numbers from poor, working class and/or black backgrounds. The white middle classes will never be the reduction.

badkitten Government target is for 3 million apprentice starts by 2020. That includes degree level apprenticeships. So maybe they'll catch on....

titchy
It's the current system of fees and lack of support for students that will undoubtedly affect the poor, working class and ethnic minority number of students.

But the data doesn't support that OP. More kids from disadvantaged backgrounds are going to university now than they ever did.

I really hope they do Titchy.

I quite remember students actually RIOTING

I quite remember students actually RIOTING

Rag week ?

As to whether to choose free healthcare rather than free education - having free healthcare has led to us being utterly complacent and overly demanding. But that's another thread.
Its not FREE. We pay taxes to have it.

Lurking and others with short memories. Yes rioting. Police kettling etc. Do you not remember Charlie Gilmore (son of Dave of Pink Floyd fame) being banged up for extending his rioting to climbing the cenotaph?

Titchy, I am from what can be deemed a poor background and I got a uni place on merit for a highly contested course at a highly regarded uni. In the 80s. It would be prohibitive for me now because of fees. Too many students at too many poor quality unis. We need proper non - uni options so that people are not being lured into studies that waste their time.