AIBU to think this Supermarket is judging my parenting?

[Doingmybestmum]

AIBU? Standing in a queue in Tesco with (home from uni) DD chatting to me. I was clutching a much anticipated bottle of Pimms, with accompanying lemonade, strawberries, mint etc... goodies going through when charmless checkoutee asks for age of said 21 year old DD and ID for her or she would not be able to sell me the Pimms. I calmly explained that I (substantially over 21) am buying said alcoholic beverage with my money and a) DD is only standing next to me b) its my money c) DD is over 21 and d) what on earth... the manager was called and I was allowed to purchase. AIBU to think that this is ridiculous - I understand that adults must not buy alcohol for underage children, but if you were - would it be Pimms, and would you have the "child" standing next to you?

a1poshpaws No, 'charmless checkout girl' was a) doing her job and b) following the law.

That's not being a prat.

I don't know about selling to an adult who is buying on behalf of a child, but "knowingly" is not a key-word if you sell alcohol to an under-eighteen.

To put it baldly, you still get done if you thought they were 26, because it is a strict liability offence.

But if you have a teenager with you (under 18) whilst doing your shop it wouldn't make any difference if they had ID or not would it? Since they would be underage...

Supermarkets can't make money from alcohol sales and at the same time stop all parents with teenagers under 18 buying alcohol! Perhaps they should have alcohol only sections, where people wouldn't take their teenagers (or stop being greedy by selling alcohol and leave it to off licenses).

TaraCarter - Well yes this is why you check their ID if they don't look over 25. That's why it's set to 25. The 'knowingly' is more if somebody comes to your till who is over 25 but they have somebody who looks under 25 and you have reason to suspect they're going to give the alcohol to them - but also if you have a group of under 25's and you think they're all going to drink it you should card them all and not just the one paying (or at least that is the policy, as far as I know, in most supermarkets).

I am afraid you are being very unreasonable. Very, very unreasonable. That "Charmless" checkout assistant was only doing their job. Do you realize if that person sells alcohol 'by proxy' (basically to an adult who is buying for a minor) then that "charmless" checkout assistant faces - job loss, fine, criminal record - yes that is the "charmless" checkout assistant - not the store nor the manager but the person who scans the alcohol and takes your money. I worked in supermarket and I would much rather ID every person who came through the door with an underage person next to them than risk not being able to feed my children because of the consequences of breaking the law.

PolkadotsAndMoonbeams - No they don't card every teenager they see with parents - it is only if they suspect the parent is going to buy them the alcohol (i.e I had a lot of parents say to their kids when they arrived at the till 'go on dear put your WKD on the belt' or you see them ask them to pick a drink out something to that degree that clearly indicated they were buying it for them - trust me it happens alot).

Do you understand now? It's not every time - only if a cashier has reason to suspect alcohol is being bought for somebody who looks under 25.

Maybe it is store policy, but store policy is as good as law to employees.

But not to customers. Stores are free to adopt whatever policies they want (as long as they don't break the actual law, of course) but they shouldn't hide behind 'it's the law' because it merely leads to confusion. I can see that employees are in a difficult position, especially when - as reported here - a great number of them appear to be being misled on what the law actually says. Employers need to make clear to employees and their customers what their policies are. So that we can go elsewhere if we think their policy is wrong/over-zealous/mistaken.

Buying a bottle of Pimm's while in possession of a child is not an offence. It's okay if my child is over 25, apparently. What if she's 3? 11? 16? I know it's ridiculous, but I'd like to know what to expect while out shopping.

pippistrelle

Look - you're taking this waaaay too personally. Nobody is saying that it is an offence to buy alcohol when you have a child present.

The offence lies in the cashier selling that alcohol to somebody who they have reason to believe is going to give it to somebody who is potentially underage. That's why they sometimes ask how old your child is and ask for ID - they've seen or heard something that indicates you might give somebody potentially under 18 the alcohol. If your child is over 25, of course they won't card them, or you but they are within their right to do it to play it safe - this is a very serious law with very serious consequences if it gets broken.

For example (I've stated this in other comments), I have heard parents say something that indicates certain alcoholic items are for a child with them who looks under 25 (such as 'put your WKD on the till, dear'), I have seen parents call to their child 'go and pick out what you want' from the alcohol aisle. I have seen accompanying children indicate verbally to their parents that the alcohol is for them i.e 'Can I have some of this when I get home?'. Sometimes security guards pop by and tip us off that they have witnessed parents getting drinks for potential under 25 kids. These are just some examples. If any cashier saw/heard anything like that they have no choice but to ask the accompanying kids for ID and if none could be provided, legally they must refuse to let you buy it. If they sold you the alcohol when they had reason to believe you would give it to somebody potentially under age, they would be breaking the law.

It is not 'hiding' behind the law - the 25 policy makes it easier and clearer for them to follow said law. The law says don't sell to anyone under 18. Carding anyone who looks under 25 is their way of ensuring that doesn't happen.

FYI: Every store I have ever been into for the past 9 years has had a sign up either at the till, in the alcohol aisle or both explaining the 'Think 25' policy. It's very clear and explains why they do it.

I'm really not taking it personally. I just think it important to differentiate between law and a company's policy, and find it slightly (only very slightly) disturbing that stores seem to be telling their staff that this is the law. Personally, I'm not that bothered and, in fact, I'd be terribly flattered if anyone asked me to prove I was over 25 (not that I routinely carry ID with a date of birth on it anyway, so I probably couldn't prove my age).

I do think this is mad. I also can't see that there is an offence of selling to an adult that later gives the alcohol to a person under 18? It's been a while since I did alcohol policy, but my understanding is s147 is about selling to a child, and s149 means that the adult that buys alcohol on behalf of a child is committing an offence. Not the store that sold it.

I also do not think TS would set up a test purchase with an adult and a child? As the adult is actually buying the alcohol so where is the offence?

Considering that so many places sell to kids ( on their own) and don't even bother asking for ID, TS have enough to keep them busy without trying to stop adults buying wine as part of the grocery shop.

At what age does this kick in? If your kid is 17/18? What about 14? Or 11?

It's all got a bit daft. Most the places round here are now 'Think 30' - there is a hue difference between thinking someone is probably in their early 20s, but could be younger, and thinking someone is probably late 30s or 40s but could possibly be 29. Which is how it seems to be being interpreted.

Common sense seems to have gone out the window, and cashiers being led to believe that they're breaking all kinds of laws when they're really not.

kathyjoy that does make sense, and sounds sensible. However in some of the cases above people and their children have been IDed when there's no indication it's for the child. And then if they are under 18 or have no ID the parent can't buy the alcohol - it doesn't seem like the cashier is able to believe them when they say "it's for me, not my child". So once they've asked for ID, if you're with an under 18 you're stuck.

It's odd though - obviously with the law I understand why the cashiers want to err on the side of caution, but as there is no reason why the U18 can't have a drink at home it just gets a bit frustrating! Especially if they've come with you to do the weekly shop - feeling accused of doing something wrong isn't much fun for anybody, let alone teenagers who hate any fuss at all...

YANBU, charmless checkout twit should really look at what the law is...

Having said that supermarkets seem to be doing a great job in putting the bejesuses up their staff... And really how many prosecutions actually occur?

The key is knowingly selling to someone who is going to charge/sell/buy for a minor.

So then give if you give it to your own kids and don't charge them it's okay? Going on the law as is surely even if the pins was for wean, all you need to prove is that theyre your child as its not illegal for them to drink with you?

pippistrelle

You twisting the scenario to be all about you (or anyone) being penalised because they were bringing their child with them to buy alcohol rather than the very rational 'well it's the law and also a policy the staff must follow or risk getting fired was taking it very personally.

The law says a supermarket (or anywhere selling alcohol) MUST have a policy that enables them to follow the law. So having this policy is the law. Oh and the think 25 was the government's suggestion for a policy, hence why most supermarkets have gone with it.

And honestly, you're just being petty. 'It's important to differentiate between the law and policy' - No it's not. It makes zero difference. A store cannot break it's policy and as I said it is the law for them to have these policies. Really what difference does it make if they made it super clear that the policy was asking everyone under 25 for ID in order to comply with the law not to sell to anyone under 18 (which is on those signs and mentioned earler btw)? You're still going to have to hand over ID, and the ID of anyone with you they suspect you'll give the alcohol to. Customers are very much just as bound by those policies by the staff - if that policy says they cannot do something. The only difference is you can choose to shop somewhere with policies you agree with while the staff are stuck until they leave their job and work elsewhere.

PolkadotsAndMoonbeams To be honest it's such a serious law, some people occasionally card anyone with children of a certain age (say 16+) The penalty is so stiff and any customer can be a potential sting. What you can do in instances where your child is under 18 or over 18 but under 25 but with no idea is the staff member can call a manager and you can state to them the alcohol is for you not them.

Maybe some people are over cautious, but wouldn't you be if making just one mistake led to being fired, blacklisted for any job that involved selling alcohol, get sent to prison and fined ....?

You have to understand that cashiers are not mind readers - how many people can you look at and accurately gauge their age and intentions? Now imagine it was the law for you to have to do just that?

Like I've said it can be a huge pain and most cashier understand - a lot of them probably get carded too. Cashiers get a lot of abuse for asking for ID, but the alternative is much, much worse. Would you risk everything - your job, prison and a huge limitation on where you can earn a living plus a criminal record for a complete stranger ...?

PolkadotsAndMoonbeams and yeah, the law is a little crazy given how you can legally drink at home but not buy it. The reason it's like that is actually to discourage people from doing it, but what you do in your home is generally unenforceable. They can't have police watch through people's windows but also privates residences are afforded certain rights and privileges that they can't step on. But big companies can be dictated to so they make their limitation there.

Trust me it is just as awkward for the staff as it is for the customers.

To all of you demeaning the checkout girl because of her job: you should be very ashamed of yourselves. belittlingg someone because of their job. Wankers.

When I worked in a supermarket we were threatened with the sack (and that our shift supervisor would get the sack too; in a small village where the staff all knew each other's families this was esp shit) if we sold alcohol even unknowingly outside of the stringent rules, so we'd err on the side of caution for everything.
Jobs are scarce so the cashier was likely just v worried about being out of work.

Kathy - I get that you don't agree that it's important to differentiate. Your lengthy explanations clearly set out the difficulty of the position that retail staff are put in. I have acknowledged that. More than once. I think understanding the law might help staff feel less anxious about the risk of being prosecuted, for example.

But of course a store can break its policy. It's a policy, not the law. They don't all operate the same policy, and they can change it at any time. I understand why stores do what they do.

I encountered a staff member in M&S once who, like kathyjoy, appeared to believe it was actually against the law to sell alcohol to anyone under the age of 25. The trouble with C25 is that anyone who looks around 30 ends up being carded by overcautious checkout operators because they could be 25, even if there's no way they could pass for 18. Thus you get ridiculous situations like refusing to sell a bottle of red to two women in their 30s because one of them doesn't have a driving licence.

Obviously I don't buy wine in M&S anymore. Their loss.

I have 3 sons in their early 20s, and the six foot three one with a beard gets ID'd the most. His 21 year old brother who is much slighter, smaller, and looks much younger - rarely gets ID'd.

I can understand how people apply the rules rigidly because they're in fear of their jobs, but have never heard this one about obvious adults buying booze in the company of their kids, before. But then I buy alcopops in Iceland (I happen to like sweet, babyish drinks) with my 15 year old stood right next to me, and have never been challenged once and you'd assume of a middle aged, jaded woman and a 15 year old boy, he'd be the one more likely to be drinking the alcopops... Maybe in Iceland they're more the demographic.

Should add, as someone in their 50s, it strikes me that we are creating a culture that is actually a ticking time bomb in that in the past, kids could try alcohol much younger, and there was less song and dance about it, and we didn't see the rampant binge drinking we see now because maybe, just maybe, we were more educated about alcohol than younger people are, now.

It creates a glamour around it that is not necessary.

pippistrelle Actually policies can't be broken with the exception of very minor ones - ones that must be there because of the law cannot be broken. As I have said many times, policies are as good as laws

puddingbunny - I did not say it was against the law to sell alcohol to anyone under 25 - I said that if they (the customer) looked under 25 they must be carded for their age (see my comment waaaay back about it being difficult to tell the difference between somebody a few years under 18 and somebody just over 18 hence why it's as high as 25). Asking for ID is not the same as refusing to sell alcohol and if you do not have ID, you are not being refused to be sold alcohol because you are under 25 - you are being refused because you cannot prove you are over 18 - it's just the fact that you looking under 25 and buying alcohol is a prompt for the staff member to card you. Do you see the difference ....? NO staff member thinks you must be over 25 to buy alcohol (or at least none in the variety of supermarkets I have worked do - we have stringent, regular training courses on this law because it is VERY important. Maybe there is one member who genuinely believe that even after seeing your ID and seeing that somebody is 18-24 that they cannot buy booze, but again, in all the places I have worked and shopped and all the policies on the bright red cards all around the stores I visit do NOT say you must be over 25 to buy alcohol). They know that they must ask you for ID. The same as I do. I most certainly do no 'believe' that a customer must be over 25.

These are the most common misunderstandings customers have that causes grief for all parties involved and in turn it makes them feel that the store is being petty. They are not - they are forced to do this.

Frankly anyone who thinks that they should just be let off and that these people should risk their jobs just for them are very entitled (disclaimer: not saying anyone in their thread is this way - only that I have seen some customers with this attitude that in spite of the law and the store policy the staff should bend over backwards and give them what they want because they're a paying customer and they can take thier money elsewhere if the staff aren't willing to break the rules just for them even though they have no ID). It's the law and it's store policy. Scream, shout, bitch and whine all you like - if you don't have ID when asked, you're not getting your booze.

You make out that it is super complicated but it's really not. Carry ID. If anyone who is with you is between 18-25 have them bring ID. If you have somebody who is under 18 and they get asked for ID and you have said/done nothing that suggests the alcohol is for them, ask for a manager and verbally confirm it is not for them. Yes, it can be a bit of a faff sometimes, but nobody wants to go to jail and be fined just so you can have your beer,/wine/spirit.

You wouldn't risk your job for a complete stranger for something so petty. Don't expect them to do it for you. It's not hard to carry ID with you and if you do forget it that's your mistake not the staff member's - they're following a policy that cannot be broken*. It's not the store's for having the policy the government says they are legally obligated to have and it is not the fault of the law that says you cannot sell alcohol to under 18's and that all who sell alcohol have an obligation to make reasonable sure that those purchasing alcohol are not under age or supplying it to those underage.

I bought a trifle and it came up with an alcohol warning. I didn't get ID'd, neither did the staff in Waitrose ask if I planned to give any to my daughter. The same 10-year old who has been with me when I've bought prosecco in the past. They are being unreasonable not to sell alcohol to an over 21 based on who accompanies you to the shops. There's a huge amount of difference between obvious shopping for an event, such as Pimms with the trimmings and buying a large bottle of cider for a group of kids loitering at the end of the checkout.

pollymere Once again they're not going to stop you buying it if you have somebody who is under 18 with you. It is only if they suspect you might give the alcohol to somebody under 18 - so if you came up to the till, whacked down a bottle of WKD/can of beer/whatever and turned to your daughter and said 'You can have this with some ice when we get home' or something, then the cashier is obligated by law to refuse to serve you any alcohol. If you just saunter up, put yout stuff on and say nothing/do nothing that indicates the alcohol you are purchasing is going to your 10 year old, you will not be asked for ID or who the alcohol is for. Plus it's not just stopping people buying for kids outside who give them cash - legally they can't allow anyone buying it for a minor - even parents buying it for their kids at home.

They don't generally base it on what the product is either - whether it's alcopops like WKD or cider or scotch - it's if you or anyone with you has given them reason to suspect you're buying it for somebody who needs to be carded to confirm they are over 18 (i.e anyone who looks under 25). They don't ask every parent that comes to their till if they plan on giving the booze to their kids, and the rules are generally more lax on food items with alcohol in (even though some of it contains more booze in it than cider or WKD but there we go).

That's why you didn't get carded or asked - you didn't give the cashier reason to think you would give the alcohol to your 10 year old (also it was a food item).

Also it's not unreasonable. Again, it's the law (stores have a legal obligation to take reasonable measures to ensure alcohol doesn't get bought by or on behalf of those underage) If they have reason to believe an over 25 os going to give that alcohol to somebody under 18 or something they can't be 100% sure isn't 18, they have a legal obligation to ask for ID of all parties they have reason to believe are going to have that alcohol.

Nobody is penalising you for who you are bringing with you to buy alcohol - there are just certain protocols staff must follow if they have reason to believe the alcohol you are purchasing is going to go to anyone under 18.

It's worth noting that if, say a group of 18 year olds came to my till but only one of them was paying for the beer or whatever, but I heard them talking about a party or about them all sharing said item, I would ask them all for ID because I had reason to believe they were all going to drink the beer, and they all looked under 25. If one of them did not have ID, I would have to refuse the sale because I couldn't be 100% sure one of them wasn't underage.

So they're no just targetting parents, it's not a judgement on people bringing their kids to buy booze (honestly they couldn't care less). It's just following the law and company policy (which as I have mentioned before, they legally must have a policy in place to help them keep this law)