to think one of us is really, really hard work & that it isn't me?

[Deeppansexual]

This is a text exchange from today spread out between half five and half nine, exactly as you see it.

Back story: Divorced for 5 years plus. Two sons - 11 and 13 (13 is autistic) - who stay at his most weekends, from where he takes them on the bus to school on a Monday morning. I drive, he doesn't. We have a really really hard time communicating as you can see, but I know that I'm putting effort into it & I really do not know if he is or not. I find him quite frightening for lots of historical reasons, so I'm not very natural with him any more, and I just don't know how to take a lot of what he says, but I feel that he's quite rude, especially for someone who is so alert for anything in my tone to object to (this happens a lot). But actually he just bewilders me. And angers me, it must be said. More info on request.

Can you help me out here and tell me if aibu to think that one of us is really hard work here and that it's not me?

I am D for deeppan & he is R.

D: [13 yo Son] thinks his braces are at yours, are they?

R: Yeah - by the side of his bed. Despite my repeated … whatever … they really have to both up their game re their stuff. Bit tired of this now. Let’s both be hardline please. They need some discipline on this one. No violin his weekend because you couldn’t trust [son] to get it through school, I hear. Life-training. I/we can’t do this shit for them forever …

D: What does it mean, hardline? In terms of action?

R: Oh for goodness sake! Train them to organise themselves. Stick and carrot. You know … help them be self-reliant and all that …

D: What would the stick and carrot be, for example? Are you thinking to punish [son] for forgetting his braces?

R: No. Are you deliberately missing the point? They have to learn to organise themselves so we need to be a creative about teaching them how to do this. So be creative. Me too…

D: I need you to make sure they have everything they need on a Monday morning. Mondays are not good as teachable moments. They are your responsibility. By all means be creative at other times.

R: On the other hand ‘punishment’ is not a bad word, imposed with kindness. [Son] said you said he would have to pay for his new braces because he lost his pair. Did you stick to this? And if he lost his violin what would happen then?

D: Yes, he’s paying for his new braces.

R: Consequences is a better word than punishment …
R: Good
R: You send them to school on 4 days a week, me on 1. It is their responsibility and they need to rise to the occasion. You have 5 times the opportunity to train them at this, yet i am the bad guy. Don’t think so, sorry …

D: This conversation is over.

R: Yep.
R: Yep.

D: Actually this conversation isn’t over. On Monday mornings it is your responsibility to make sure they have important things with them for the WHOLE WEEK. Yours. Forgetting doesn’t make you a ‘bad guy’, that’s nonsense. It just means that you forgot something important and you need to take responsibility for that. I think you should take his braces to [son] at school this week so that I don’t - yet again - have to make a special trip to [your town].

R: Actually this conversation is over. I’m in london from tomorrow until thursday. I have arranged things with the boys and will only ring them on thursday this week.

D: I see. Perhaps a checklist on the door in future that everyone can look at on their way out. We do it here & it’s good discipline for them. The final responsibility is, however, yours.

R: Thank you -this is very helpful actually. We will do this. It is a great idea and genuinely helpful - thank you again. Really, deeppan, could we do more of this kind of practical chat in future?This helps me a lot and is really valuable. The rhetoric stuff is really not. Can we cut that maybe? Great idea - we’ll do that from this weekend. Sorry i was so crap as to not think of it myself!

D: What rhetoric?
D: Thanks for the apology. You did come out swinging rather, which makes a sensible conversation hard to get around to.

R: Goodnight Deeppan.

D: Of course. And I think you should reread this series of texts in the morning after a good night’s sleep. That’s friendly advice btw :)

R: And you too, thoughtfully.

D: [13 yo Son] thinks his braces are at yours, are they?

R: Yeah - by the side of his bed. Despite my repeated … whatever … they really have to both up their game re their stuff. Bit tired of this now. Let’s both be hardline please. They need some discipline on this one. No violin his weekend because you couldn’t trust [son] to get it through school, I hear. Life-training. I/we can’t do this shit for them forever …

I would advise not getting involved in long conversations by text. I would have ignored the bollocks and just replied 'Oh cool. I will get [son's name] to arrange with you how to get them back. Ta'.

Sounds exactly like my ex. The underlying tone/message to everything he says is that its my fault. Whatever the 'it' in question is. Always because of something I've done/not done.
I just refuse to engage with him on these things anymore. Its bloody hard work and annoying as hell. Yanbu.

Dieu I've been trying for ages to find the right word to describe the tone of my ExH's communications with me, and you've got it bang on - 'superior'.

I pretty much avoid all communication with him these days. The DCs have had their own phones from early on, to enable this.

Neither of you sound good to be honest. But possibly text isn't the way to do this. Agree you could have shut it down after the first text. But you picked at it.

His base point is a good one - they are old enough to look after their things, stop babying them. But the wording around it from both of you wasn't helpful.

You sound defensive a bit op, but that's not a criticism from me, it's an understanding. When I read my Whatsapp exchanges back I sound the same to my ex I think. He winds me up with a patronising shitty tone and I'm always on my guard.

Just try to disengage as much as you can and don't be drawn in. Also push it back to him every time - it happened on his watch.

He's making out like he can get away with the one morning of chaos because you should be training on the majority, therefore he's Scott free. Not true and Monday is the worst day by the looks of things.

Ignore all the parenting talk, I would've just replied after the first tirade of "parenting advice":

Glad they aren't lost, let me know when you can get them to him at school. Goodnight!

I found his exchanges funny, to be honest. Because he wants something done and thinks it should be done but he has no idea what, so he puts it firmly at your door. Then he's grateful you have him an idea. Because he couldn't bloody think of anything despite his superior tone.

From bitter experience, keep as factual as possible and as simple as possible.

It would have been funny if you kept asking him what he thought should be done, specifically, and watch him go round in circles.

Anyway, I think you did well with your suggestion and I'd leave it at that.

Thanks so much all. Good advice & useful perspectives.

I'm struck by the bit where you make a totally bloody obvious suggestion (checklist on leaving) and he says:

Thank you -this is very helpful actually. We will do this. It is a great idea and genuinely helpful - thank you again. Really, deeppan, could we do more of this kind of practical chat in future?This helps me a lot and is really valuable.

He isn't expecting to have to do any brain work at all, then he scolds you for not spoon-feeding him sooner. The bit you pick him up on (carrot and stick) is more of this: you're saying "yeah ok but what does that mean in practical terms" and he puts professor hat on and blah blahs on about the theory.

The exchange puts me in mind of a couple in Indian Summers (which nearly nobody watches so I'm not expecting you to get the reference) - this is exactly how the husband is, particularly in public. He uses their son to manipulate and punish her, over and over again.

He got beaten to death by an angry mob in the last episode if it's any consolation.

I agree with pps that you are gaining nothing by engaging with him beyond pure practicalities. I hope you are able to find ways to do this. Text is good as you can put two fingers up at the phone before responding.

I read that thinking you sound quite difficult and goading, as if you're trying to make him pissed off (which seems very easy to do!) But I get that he's probably made you like this. If it was me I just wouldn't poke the bear and keep things really brief.

I'm sorry you had a hard time with him and it's still continuing. I would advise more emotional detachment, keep things fact based and functional to avoid these kind of interactions. Don't respond when he strays from fact based and functional into unclear language that then requires clarification. for you , so bloody stressful.

Sorry but I don't think he was BU. To me your initial texts sound obtuse. He is right that you both need to help them put strategies in place so that they can manage their lives.

He's patronising, you're hard work and goady.

50/50.

He's not nice at all but, you sound like you're trying to provoke him. Think text is the wrong way for you to communicate.

He was just asking for back up to solve a problem. You seemed a bit resistant to help him by being a bit obtuse, but you inadvertantly came up with a good suggestion which he seemed grateful for.
He also enquired whether you stuck to your guns regarding a consequence you threatened, as he thinks that is a way forward to help train them. He then suggested more communication and working together to solve future problems.

I think you appeared obtuse because you were trying to make it crystal clear based on past experience but I can see why he got frustrated.

His wording is also a bit flowery and not direct to the point but perhaps he was trying to word things carefully as you've reacted to him in the past?

All in all I don't read anything in it other than a desire to work together to make life easier for both of you and your sons.

He is patronising but I don't think you helped, tbh. Keep it simple and factual.

"Did DS leave his braces?"
"Yes"
"Okay, I'll get him to ring you and he can collect them, thanks."
/end conversation.

There's no need for the rest of it, really. You're just winding each other up.

Oh and I hadn't read that a previous poster used the word obtuse.

Similar interpretation.

I think you both sound really hard work
probably it's the problem of 2 people who can't bear each other being forced to communicate.

agree the conversations should be as brief as possible.

i don't think either of you were trying to help each other. the tone of the texts isn't great. a lot of anger and resentment.

i think these sorts of exchanges are best avoided. don't get drawn in.

it is hard to interpret the 'thank you -this is very helpful actually'. is he sarcastic? or genuine? just seems ott to me.

I think you started it.

He* started it. Not you.

I think you both sound really hard work
probably it's the problem of 2 people who can't bear each other being forced to communicate.

I thought this too. But those two people made two other people before they found they couldn't stick each other.

I thought he was being quite reasonable but the problem with texting is you can't really get the tone. It sounds like you are both trying to word things carefully so as not to cause a fight. Whilst it might seem a simple matter to pin a list to the door to you, my guess is he's getting his head around how to cope with looking after the kids entirely on his own. Pat yourself on the back for coping so well and be graceful in giving him ideas whilst he is receptive. After all, it isn't about doing his thinking as much as it is making an already stressful situation easier for your kids.

I am also coming from a situation where any communication with the ex is met with either complete disinterest or foul language and abuse so I am quite envious that you are able to communicate at all.

Agree with pp about keeping it short & sweet, it's not up to you to be giving him tips like the list.
It's a long time after splitting for the to be so much tot for tat going on too.
In future, have the convo in your head but only write the bare bones

You: did ds leave his braces at yours?
Him : yes in his room blah blah need to teach them responsibility blah blah etc etc
You: great, ds will text you later to arrange getting them back

End of, just. Shut him down with facts & simple sentence

Yeah, I think you both sound like hard work.

I'm also not a fan of faithfully reproducing a private text conversation all over Mumsnet. If I were him, I'd be seriously fucked off.

To me your initial texts sound obtuse.

Which one of these are obtuse? I'd say the second, not the OP's.

D: [13 yo Son] thinks his braces are at yours, are they?

R: Yeah - by the side of his bed. Despite my repeated … whatever … they really have to both up their game re their stuff. Bit tired of this now. Let’s both be hardline please. They need some discipline on this one. No violin his weekend because you couldn’t trust [son] to get it through school, I hear. Life-training. I/we can’t do this shit for them forever …