To be annoyed that immigration is the main issue for most people in EU debate?

[susanketty]

Whether you are 'in' or 'out', I'm getting tired of immigration being the main issue for people - sure, it will have an impact, but brexit is not going to solve any problems with immigration that people perceive, and immigration fears does not seem to be to me a good enough reason to vote out. And voting in is not going to necessarily lead to a rush of immigrants.

We are not in the Schengen area, we have border control, and EU immigrants make a net contribution to our economy. Brexiteers often say they would like a Norway-esque agreement, which seems to me like all the problems (i.e., free movement of people) with none of the advantages other than being in the trade area (which we are already).

I just think there is more to the debate than immigration and it seems to me like it's been pushed to the front of the agenda to push more people to vote out due to fear.

Call me selfish OP, I'm sure you will, but personally I don't want new towns, hospitals, schools being built on our countryside to house millions of people coming in, which we have no control over, green belt or not.

I am not arguing for every square foot to be built upon.

That's fine, and very reasonable. How much of it would be enough, in your more contemporary approach? We need to house an extra 72,000 people annually from the EU alone if government approved figures for 2015 are to be believed - that's a decent sized town each year, when will have built enough?

Having watched the Paxman programme last night I am 100% for out. Immigration certainly is a major issue, but not the main one for me.

YANBU and this is pissing me off too! People that I have encountered have absolutely no reasoning, other than that they think everyone they deem 'undesirable' will be chucked in the channel.

People that I have encountered have absolutely no reasoning, other than that they think everyone they deem 'undesirable' will be chucked in the channel.
You've been debating the issues with the wrong people then - this thread's got some decent points on it - and BTW whilst I don't agree with the OP, it's been a fairly reasoned debate so far.

believe me if you lived in the area I live immigration would be a major factor for you. I have no objections to economic migrants, I would be a total hypocrite if I did given how many members of my family arrived in the UK as economic migrants.

But the area I live in has changed from being a predominantly Asian/Irish population to a massively eastern European population. There are no more houses so heaven only knows how so many extra people are managing to squeeze in. It has always been an area with a high population density but its getting beyond a joke. The local primary schools have gone from 2 form entry to 3 or 4 form entry to cope with the massive increases in children, on sites that were too small anyway meaning where the playgrounds used to be there are now endless prefab classrooms.

The new children have no culture of education so attend school as and when, I used to work in local school as a TA so have some experience of the children. Also the parents seem to have no culture of work as the parents are around the streets all the time, I am currently a full time carer for my bed bound daughter so spend far too much of my life in my kitchen and can see groups of 10+ men on the back street all day. Added to which all the women are pregnant...I know it sounds like a sketch written by the Daily Mail but they are. All of which puts a massive amount of pressure on an already overstretched local maternity unit...the list could go on.

The new comers are doing wonders for community cohesion which is suppose a kind of benefit, as we all complain about them when we meet up...shopping or wherever...mostly the noise and the aggression of the children.

I know I sound like the most rampant right winger but I'm not, the area has always been for immigrant populations and that's what makes it a good place to live, I've lived here over 20 years. But no where can cope with the massive numbers of new people flooding in so quickly. Immigration is a big issue, depending on where you live obviously.

How do you know that immigration is the biggest concern of "most people in the uk"?

The biggest concern the people I know have is with the lack of democracy in the EU commission and how decisions are put to the MEPs.
British sovereignty and autonomy is also important.

Immigration isn't the main issue - "it's the economy, stupid"

www.ipsosmori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3732/Immigration-one-of-the-biggest-issues-for-wavering-EU-referendum-voters.aspx

The plain fact is that we do not control our borders unless you think controlling your borders boils doing to the simplistic notion of checking passports. Controlling our borders is about a lot more than that. It's about
deciding who can come here
deciding who can stay here
deciding who has to leave
and in the case of EU citizens all 55million of the have the right to come here to live and work should they wish to exercise that right. The Home Sec can exclude some people if she has a compelling reason to do so and cannot deport EU citizens at the end of their prison sentences as they , as EU citizens, have the right to live and work in the UK.

The fact remains that while we remain in the EU we must allow any EU citizen to come to the UK to live and work. We cannot stop them.

I have met hundreds of people since the start of the campaign. Immigration is not a 'main issue' for them.

Many of them want to vote LEAVE becaseu they fell they were lied to in 1975 when they thought they were voting for a trading organisation - ot for a political project.
Some vote LEAVE voters want to restore the UK's sovereiegnty and self-determination.
Some want to vote LEAVE to protect the NHS from TTIP.
Some want to vote LEAVE to ensure we never join an EU Army.
Some want to vote LEAVE to ensure Cameron is booted out of office by the Conservatives the next day.

Give me 100 LEAVE voters and you will find a 100 reasons to LEAVE.

I'm more interested in why someone would want to start a thread on immigration claiming it's the main issue? Trying to say LEAVE voters are doing so primarily because of immigration is just lazy thinking.

I don't accept that we would have the same agreeme

the increase in [NHS] patients is to do with immigration, both EU and non-EU

That doesn't make any sense. .

The heaviest users of NHS services (and social care services, btw) are age 50+, and especially age 65+ (or age 80+, who use ambulances very heavily). Plus under 5s, but the

*I have met hundreds of people since the start of the campaign. Immigration is not a 'main issue' for them.

Many of them want to vote LEAVE becaseu they fell they were lied to in 1975 when they thought they were voting for a trading organisation - ot for a political project.
Some vote LEAVE voters want to restore the UK's sovereiegnty and self-determination.
Some want to vote LEAVE to protect the NHS from TTIP.
Some want to vote LEAVE to ensure we never join an EU Army.
Some want to vote LEAVE to ensure Cameron is booted out of office by the Conservatives the next day.

Give me 100 LEAVE voters and you will find a 100 reasons to LEAVE.*

Quite frankly, I find those reasons pretty unreasonable. Vote to leave the EU just so that Cameron loses his office? Really? Whether you like him or not, he was democratically voted in. Because the '75 vote was for something different? Forget that many people who stand to be affected by this vote were not of voting age in '75. EU Army? Is this going to be forced on us?

As for sovereignty and self-determination - I think Britain has far less oomph in the modern world than a few decades ago, we can be self-determined to be a bit player independently. As I mentioned earlier, we have a fair bit of self-determination at the moment, is more necessarily going to result in a better country?

I don't accept that we would have to have the same sort of agreement as Norway at all. We are the 5th largest economy in the world.

Do America, Japan, South Africa or all the other countries in the world that trade with the EU pay to do so ? No. Or accept the free movement of EU citizens to go and live in their countries? No.

Which proves that it is perfectly possible to trade with the EU without having to accept free movement.

However, if we stretch suspend belief and imagine that the UK is forced to adopt the same arrangements as Norway then here are the differences between being in the EU and being 'Norway'. Given our already small voice in the EU that will decline as more countries join the EU - what's not to like?

Here at the differences between EU membership and 'Norway'

Quite frankly, I find those reasons pretty unreasonable.

Lol! LEAVE voters would find selling away your rights for cheap roaming charges or a cheapie flight on Ryan air to be equally as unreasonable.

Vote to leave the EU just so that Cameron loses his office? Really? Whether you like him or not, he was democratically voted in.

Yep - at least a dozen people have said they will vote LEAVE to give Cameron a good kick.

Because the '75 vote was for something different?

So I am told by many many people who are really angry at having voted for a 'Common Market' and now find they are being told by the ECJ that they cannot deport EU citizen crimnals.

Forget that many people who stand to be affected by this vote were not of voting age in '75.

True - but that doesn't negate the fact that many 60+ people did vote IN in 1975 and now wish to vote LEAVE.

EU Army? Is this going to be forced on us?

The people who use this reason are ensuring that it never will be - because they want us out of the EU altogether.

for sovereignty and self-determination - I think Britain has far less oomph in the modern world than a few decades ago, we can be self-determined to be a bit player independently.

Britain's sovereignty and self-determination is continually eroded by our EU membership. We can only be a bit player in those areas which the EU has not yet assumed control.

As I mentioned earlier, we have a fair bit of self-determination at the moment, is more necessarily going to result in a better country?

I think so - that's why I am voting LEAVE.

To be honest, you don't sound as though you have been doing much talking to a range of people out there on the streets - of either side (because the REMAN voters reasons for staying are always interesting).

I am guessing (could be wrong) that you are relatively young, because amongst most of the older age group the EU is something that is utterly detested - not supported and that started long before any large increase in EU migration into the UK.

Having said that, there are many younger people who also loathe the EU for its interference in so many aspects of our lives.

As I said, 100 people, 100 reasons. I'll probably find another 20 reasons while I am out tomorrow.

Forgot to mention my next door neighbours son has recently come home after a couple of years y'at her majority's pleasure' for petty drug dealing. He was chatting when he came back and was shocked at how much the area had changed for the worse while he'd been away.

The irony wasn't lost on me but it does give an indication of how massive the difference is and how fast it's occurred.

USA & South Africa both have huge amount of illegal immigration. Whether they like it or not. Then they have period amnesties... then more influx... then amnesties... then more influx...

Illegal immigrants are an issue in Japan, too.

I 'll probably vote leave. I also love Albania. Neither of these facts should be related but they are in some debates.

USA & South Africa both have huge amount of illegal immigration. Whether they like it or not. Then they have period amnesties... then more influx... then amnesties... then more influx...

Illegal immigrants are an issue in Japan, too.

Why on earth are you determined to conflate the freedom of movement within the EEA with illegal immigration into USA and South Africa.

I was not talking about illegal immigration. I was saying that when USA or South Africa trades with the EU we don't expect to be able to go and legally settle in the US or South Africa or for their populations to come to live in the EU.

As you well know, I was saying that the EU can trade with countries without having freedom of movement with every trading partner.

This isREMAIn side's tactic -to try to muddy the waters to cover up the paucity of the argument.

Older voters are more likely to be OUT, younger are more likely to be IN. For a variety of reasons, but it does seem that a segment of relatively well off secure older voters are willing to potentially sacrifice the economic well being of younger voters for an ideology of 'independence'.

Or they are voting Out to secure the long term economic well being of the younger generations..................

Susan It could be that older voters voted to join the common market when they were young, and now realise their mistake?

it does seem that a segment of relatively well off secure older voters are willing to potentially sacrifice the economic well being of younger voters for an ideology of 'independence'.

Ok, I thought we were having a sensible debate - but that's just devisive nasty mudslinging. Why can't you accept peolle's democratic right to vote as they see fit, without this snide villification?

BMW6 you're right. I spoke to an 86-year-old today, he's voting Leave because of his children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren.

Weirdly when i speak to 20 somethings they are voting in, mainly cos like me the idea of scameron and co being in real controll is too scarey

YANBU. I agree with you.

For me the main sticking point is I am terrified of just how cruel the Tories will be without the threat of EU law. Them being the very final say on what happens in this country is a horrible horrible thought. They are already being looked into for disabled rights violations and such by the EU.

Having said this, its odd Cameron seems to want to stay. I'm betting his mates have some financial benefit because of the EU or something.