I didn't know the mindgames would start so soon...

[WhatHo]

So, DD1 is 6. She has a friend called, let's say Katie, and another friend called Amy. Katie and my DD are both quite gentle, Amy has a... stronger personality. At their last play date she was horrible to my DD2, whispering things like, "Why is your sister so WEIRD?" to DD1 while they were having tea, while staring at DD2. DD2, who is 4, got quite upset.
There's another girl in class who is quite emotional, Jane, and (according to DD1) Amy tells her things like that her jumper is stupid, why does she wear stupid stuff, nothing abusive per se, but they're 6!
DD1 loves Amy (grrr), but the relationship is complex - typical threesome which is such a bad number for girls. If DD and Katie don't do as Amy tells them she runs off crying, then they have to console her, or she says she won't be their friend.
This am I found a note in her bag saying sorry for not playing with her during break and asking Amy to still be her friend. Turns out that yesterday DD, Katie and a couple of others were playing a game Amy didn't want to play. They refused to stop their game so Amy 'had to play by herself' and blanked DD for the rest of the day.
I love women, I'm a girl's girl, but I hate that female Mindgame shit . I can't believe it's started already. I feel like in 20 years time DD1 is going to be writing that recent MN thread about the WhatsApp group and the present and not being invited to the party.

AIBU to tell the teacher as it's teacher's evening next week and hope she can, do something? Am I being:
a) PFB (probably)
b) Naive
c) wasting teacher's time (but it's a very small class of 15)
c) To say something about Jane. She is vulnerable as is - though is it OK to take a 6 year old's word on something?

if I don't say anything, is there anything I can do or do I accept it as part of life's rich tapestry of women being vile to women as it will happen throughout her life?
Amy's mum is very nice but an absolute Tiger Mum, my gut instinct is that she would dismiss anything i had to say and be pissed off that I brought it up. Perhaps rightly so?

I'm still so new to this child-rearing thing. Help me! Also Please be gentle with me, I never normally post in AIBU...!

Agree with WorraLiberty and with Sparrowhawk.

Would also add that I was very aware of the mean behaviour of other little girls when dd was little: the things she has told me in later years about her own behaviour have absolutely made my hair stand on end. But of course I never heard that side of the matter at the time.

Not saying you shouldn't ask teacher for help with this, just that you will get further if you go into it with the mindset of asking her to help all the children to work out how to play nicely than with the idea that little girls are somehow manipulative women in disguise.

I have heard at least as much bitchy gossip from ds' circle as from dd's over the years and I don't suppose ds and his friends are more ill-natured than most other boys.

What's really nice to hear is that schools do work with this sort of thing, I was a bit worried they'd just roll their eyes at me.

Is there a way of doing it...?

To me, this sounds like a parenting thing, not a teacher thing. It's the start of a long fight towards independence in thought and action for your daughter against social and gender pressures. All you can do is to support and guide her to make the right decisions and to think for herself. I think there's a delicate and difficult line to be trodden between being an empathetic and kind person and not being either aggressive or a pushover. Most of us fail at it sometimes as adults, let alone as children!

I'm more and more convinced that I would have benefited massively from assertiveness training at a young age! I really think the same principles hold, whether you're 7 or 77.

Definitely not just a girl thing. DS2 was totally dropped by all his friends in Year 8, for about 6 months. It was heartbreaking to watch.

Thread moving a bit fast but I'll say for the third time that I absolutely acknowledge the comments about boys being as bad - and call it drama rather than mindgames.

I do move in a very female world. But do guys keep doing as adults like women? Like mirtle's 'friend' who breaks up conversations by standing inbetween two people? Or the present /party thread?

Shovetheholly - ideally, it's both a parenting and a school thing. Group dynamics can be improved most easily by addressing them as a group - i.e. at school, but parents need to teach kindness and empathy as well as coping strategies at home.

In DD's year group, it happens to be the girls who are most inclined to this sort of behaviour. As a group, there are lots of strong personalities amongst the girls, and less so amongst the (equal number of) boys. The challenges the boys have are much more around egging each other on to silly/disruptive behaviour rather than falling out with each other. I am sure in other years it is different. I just hope that as they move up the school the staff continue to be as proactive in addressing it as they have been this year.

But of course I never heard that side of the matter at the time
cory this does worry me. I'm getting the bulk of this from DD and a small amount from what I've seen.

I guess I say... what? There seems to be some unhealthy group dynamics and could she as you say, help all the children to work out how to play nicely?

'I do move in a very female world. But do guys keep doing as adults like women? Like mirtle's 'friend' who breaks up conversations by standing inbetween two people? Or the present /party thread?'

If we talking about females and males as groups than it's fair to say that as adults males rape and murder pretty frequently.

My DD4 sounds a little similar to 'Amy' and I was aware of how she was upsetting the other kids in Yr1. She's got three older sisters, so has seen plenty of attitude in her life !!
To begin was mortified, but then also began to realise that for unhelpful dynamics to develop, it does actually take two (or three) children, not just one. In our case the girl that was most upset by my 'Amy' was incredibly emotional and cared far too much about what other people/teacher thought of her- so it had actually been quite easy for my 'Amy' to develop a bit of power over her. I'm not actually saying this to defend 'Amy', rather to encourage you to strengthen the resilience of your child. So to show her how to stand her own ground without being spiteful towards Amy (ie don't go too far the other way). These are the lessons of life, and it's tough!!

I have DDs (one KS1 and one KS2) and have seen both go through this sort of thing. It won't stop, it just keep changing.

I always alert the class teacher - I think it helps them to have your view on the friendhsip dynamics. In ost cases, the teacher has also picked up n it and having an agreed strategy for dealing with any outrageous incidents is useful.

I address any unreasonable behaviours I see in any child (mine or anyone's elses) under my roof. My house, my rules. All kids get the same message about what is acceptable and what isn't.

Mostly, I try to help the girls focus on their feelings and needs first. I worry that too often girls are expected to be compliant and cooperative even in the face of unreasonable behaviours. SO yes, we talk about inclusive play and how people get hurt when they are excluded but we also discuss how to address unreasonable behaviours and seek support when they refuse to engage with a child who is being unpleasant.

I try to give them self-belief, drawing their own boundaries around what good friendship looks and feels like and help them find their own strategies for dealing with peers with whom those standards for good friendship are not achievable. Then if they chose to play with the Queen Bee (who they know is unreliable when it comes to good friendship), then they do so with some knowledge and acceptance of the risk.

I also try to get them to view incidents in some perspective otherwise every "she looked at me funny" turns into massive trauma.

Doesn't stop the tears and I have to bite my tongue so I don't do any "Told you so" but I have seen an increasing resilience in both DDs over time.

Bloody hard work and very emotional. I tell DH to count his lucky stars that the girls don't bring their friendship woes to him.

Sparrowhawk I think if you equate manipulation in friendship groups with rape and murder, you and I are coming at this from very different places.

I didn't equate the two. You seem to think it's ok to talk about women as if they're one group with one mind. I was doing the same thing but with men, which as you can see is ridiculous. Some women are nasty, some men are nasty.

unhelpful dynamics to develop, it does actually take two (or three) children - yes fair point, and I'm also aware I'm particularly down on Amy as she was horrible to DD2 - something I didn't handle, though will if she does it again.

ShutUp sorry, stupid of me but don't know what KS is? Basically what you are describing is how I would like to be but feel like I'm groping in the dark a bit with how to handle it.

Sparrowhawk I am coming at this from the perspective of my daughter managing her first friendship drama - and yes I take the point from a few people that mindgames is not a helpful phrase - and seeing it from the perspective of other female friendship dramas I have had to deal with and seen and read about yada yada yada over the years.
I do not think and never did suggest that all women are all one thing. That was YOUR assumption. And, to use a word you like, it's an idiotic assumption.

For example, why would I come on MN and post in its punchiest section, fully expecting a range of responses from the infinite variety of men and women on here, if I thought all women were just the same?

I'd start with "In this house we don't say mean things to each other, now please say sorry to DD2?"

Then I would explain to your DD1 when she is on her own that this is bullying and it is not nice to make people feel bad and that you want her to be nice to Jane and to stand up for her and be her friend. If Amy doesn't like it that is not DD1's problem.

"I do move in a very female world. But do guys keep doing as adults like women? Like mirtle's 'friend' who breaks up conversations by standing inbetween two people? Or the present /party thread?"

Have you ever seen blokes jostling to cut in on a conversation with the boss at a staff do or speaking straight over the head of an employee (often female) of inferior status? Not an edifying sight.

To me, it seems exactly the same thing; it's just that we tend not to use "feminine" terminology when the same behaviour is displayed by a man.

My issue is that you're assuming these girls are like this, not because they're thinking, learning human beings, but because they're female, as though being female is the source of the nastiness. If you're sending that message to your daughter then she is going to struggle relating to girls and women.

You need to talk her through, asking questions to let her make her own conclusions. You have to focus on her reactions and behaviour as that is the only thing in her control.
Example:

• how did you feel when she left you out?
• why do you think she did that?
• do you think it's OK that you didn't want to play that game?
• was that good behaviour or bad behaviour?
• do you think she'll do it again?
• what could you do next time to stop that happening or make yourself feel better next time it happens? (talk through each scenario so she can decide which one suits her better)

I would also talk her through the bullying: she could be seen as complicit by remaining silent and that could lead her into trouble.

Definitely some more children round to play to show her there are other friendship options for her if she wants them

cory .... yes. Yes, I absolutely have. It is the same, isn't it? All about power.

We're such fuckers, humans there you go sparrowhawk, there's your generalisation

Boys are just as bad. My DS is in Y4 and we're right in the middle of it - he's being pulled three ways by three 'best' friends, two of whom don't get on with each other and are using him as a bit of a pawn in their differences, while his former best friend from all through Infants is making a big show of excluding him from things, and it's really getting to him.

We're such fuckers, humans

I've no idea if it is a male thing, a female thing or a human thing but either way it's not nice. You don't want to raise the trampled one or the Queen /King Bee but certainly as a female who has mostly had a female friendship group, these characters don't exist in my life anymore.

No advice but an interesting thread. Dreading the school years for my DS

We had a similar situation at school except a child was getting other children to not play with DD. This was up till then dds bestie and the friendship was ruined by overzealous parenting shall we say. DD was yr1, 5 yrs old. Some parents at dds school are very overprotective and cliquey and out of her original 3 friends, she only ever does play dates with one now - and that's very rare as she's being pushed it of the group more and more.

I did and continue the following:

• questioning as described by mellicaulli
• told the school and they had a class talk with the children about inclusion and monitored the situation - we met two or maybe 3 times
• took DD to Evening activities away from school to make new friends and improve her confidence.
• spoke to DD about inclusion to play with children when they're alone
• tell her to go off and find someone else to play with
• walk away from people being mean and tell the teacher/dinner monitor
• organised play dates (when she was ready - she was too traumatised for months) with other children. I chose children she seemed to like and whose parents seemed more reasonable. We asked girls I saw DD getting along with at the school gates - not the most popular girl - who was dds former bestie and DD to a queen bee

We really went through the mill and it took over a year to get back on an even keel. Your dds situation is less pronounced and we had terrible trouble with getting her to school. We regularly speak about what she did at lunchtime and who she plays with - that often brings up issues.

In your case, I would also teach her to ignore the offending behaviour. This is something, you will have to deal with more and more.

My DD isn't bulletproof but her confidence is through the roof these days and the 3 original friends are of far less importance because she has a large group of friends and some great play date friends, whose parents aren't in any cliques.

Sorry your daughter is having to deal with this, WhatHo. If it gives you any comfort, my daughter had very similar issues in early primary, and now they are in upper primary, it has settled down quite a lot.

There is the occasional dig or manoeuvre, but it's more easily recognised for what it is, and is not as hurtful. I'd keep reinforcing to your DD to be kind, but also not to put up with others' unkindness: To walk away if anyone starts any nonsense, and play with someone else.

I'd talk it through with her, as other posters have said, and also mention it to the teacher, for them just to keep an eye on.

On the plus side, we are also capable as humans of modifying our behaviour and learning from past experience and seeing things from the other person's pov.

When I look back at my own dc's school years it isn't just the bitching and the pushing and the cliques that spring to mind.

It is also the thought that the little girl that I thought of as a bad influence on my dd (and whose parents, I have since realised, thought of dd as a bad influence on her) has remained a steadfast friend through many years of growing and changing and outside upheavals. It is the thought that dd herself has used past experience, including her own bad behaviour, to grow into a kinder, more tolerant, more supportive person. It is the thought that when one little boy made a habit of pushing ds over in the playground, there were several other little boys who helped him up and ran for the teacher. It is the thought of the ordinary teen lad who listened to ds and advised him, wisely and thoughtfully, when he was unable to talk to us about a family-related trauma.

It's not all doom and gloom, really it isn't.