to think Roald Dahl's 'Revolting Rhymes' should be banned?

[SquareholeRoundpeg]

I know Dahl is a national treasure and children love a bit of gore and all that - but DH and I were shocked at some of the language used in some of the stories (it is not easy to shock DH!)

There is a line in the Cinderella story where the prince says of Cinderella, 'who is this dirty slut'. Had to pause on that part when reading to DS!

The language in the story shows how deeply engrained misogynistic attitudes are, and continue to be carried through in our children's literature.

How can this be allowed?!!!

Now there's a image to make your brain go all twisted.

Has anyone mentioned Fahrenheit 451 yet?

I love Roald Dahl. I remember reading Revolting Rhymes when I was probably 5/6/7 and I didn't think too much about that word. I knew how it was meant. I didn't start calling people one or anything. I also knew both meanings of the word "gay". I don't think two meanings of a word is a difficult thing for a child to grasp.

You've swallowed the "books are good for kids" narrative in a very facile, uninformed way. Now you're realising you don't have the same libertine views that many educated people have and your response is ridiculous and simplistic . He is a genius and you are not.

I think it is very important not to censor but to explain. For example, when I read The Twits to my 5yo DD I was careful to explain how Mr Twit is emotionally abusive to Mrs Twit, with reference to the Power and Control Wheel. DD was quite capable of understanding my age-appropriate explanations.

Next I will be telling her how The Worst Witch is mean about frogs.

I have to add my voice to the YABU chorus, I fear. Cinderella is a brilliant story - she realises that the prince is an idiot and ends up truly happy with a jam maker.
What's not to like?

I think children are quite capable of understanding the context of things with a bit of explanation - and the fact something is in a book doesn't mean they'll use it all the time. DD likes the Arabian Nights stories - so far this hasn't made her go around hiding people in jars and pouring boiling oil on them, beheading strangers or feeding her contemporaries to a cannibal king either.

Some of the Just So Stories take quite a lot of contextual explaining, though - The Crab That Played With The Sea springs to mind.

I recently read "The Ugly Duckling" to my little cousin, having not encountered it since my own childhood. I got to the end and thought, That can't be right. They accept him because he's attractive now? What the hell kind of message is that?

So I kind of get your reaction. But I think Roadl Dahl is "worth it", ifswim - the joy and pleasure you can get from his books is worth an awkward conversation about the word "slut", if your child notices it at all.

How does a character using a misogynistic word (if indeed it had been used in that sense) equate with the author being misogynistic? Is Margaret Atwood misogynistic because some of her characters treat women appallingly?

Isn't the whole point of Dahl's Cinderella that marrying a prince isn't necessarily the happy ending for a woman and that a young girl can and should make decisions for herself? And a strong suggestion that using words like 'slut' puts you beyond the pale? Isn't the whole point that Cinderella refuses to marry the prince because of his vile behaviour and language?

Or what have I missed?

I grew up reading RD's revolting rhymes and a whole lot worse - I had a poetry book when I was about 10 that was all about trumps and bogeys and naughty kids getting into trouble ( I was a bit of a tomboy) but if I was unsure of a word, I asked my dad, he'd tell me the meaning of the word in the context it was meant there and then.
I don't want Enid Blyton or Roald Dahl or any of the authors I grew up with to be banned. Yes they use words and phrases that have become unacceptable but yet again we are looking at the past and trying to equate it with how we live now. It is impossible to do.
If kids are reading these in school, the teacher will censure the books to make them more acceptable but I'd be happy in my own home for kids to read to them but that's my decision.

I am aware that literature can be a historical snap shot of the past and we can learn about how attitudes were etc.

My point is I was shocked about the word used in a children's book. I would prefer my DS not to encounter such words at such a young age.

I already said ban was a bit harsh, maybe edit more appropriate.

Coo-ey, PelvicFloorClenchReminder . . . Please, please, PLEASE come back and tell us what the problem is with Esio Trot:

I've been anti-Dahl since Esio Trot though.

Please?

This week's Radio Times has a long spread about Victoria Wood including the words of Let's do it which was one of the funniest things she ever did and will be repeated for years to come.

But if it was new the line

Beat me on the bottom with a woman's weekly

would be cut. Jokes about domestic violence are no longer funny.

And RD is similar. So is Lolita. And of course much of Shakespeare.

That line is to do with kinky sex rather than domestic violence surely?

Just for clarification, this is Cinderella's reaction to the Prince's attack on the ugly sisters:

"'What's all the racket? 'Cindy cried.
'Mind your own bizz,' the Prince replied.
Poor Cindy's heart was torn to shreds.
My Prince! she thought. He chops off heads!
How could I marry anyone
Who does that sort of thing for fun?"

She has a good look at him, sees him for an abusive twat- and gets away from him at once! How could any MNer disagree with that for a message? It's precisely what we preach on the Relationship board week out and week in. I am not personally fond of Roald Dahl's writings, but the advice to stay away from anyone using abusive language and violent behaviour is one I would be very happy for my dd to take on board.

Don't think I even noticed it as a kid. It's certainly not up there with cousin Dick and Aunt Fanny in the famous five!

Yes Cory - but what would the feminist say of it? Re slut?

How anyone can compare Dahl's message (don't marry a violent and misogynistic man even if he is a prince and loaded) with Lolita is totally beyond me.

SquareholeRoundpeg Fri 06-May-16 13:40:31

"Yes Cory - but what would the feminist say of it? Re slut?"

I am a feminist and I totally approve of the message of a text that tells me that using words like this is a sign of a misogynist twat. It is not the narrator's voice who speaks this word: it is the man who is just about to be dumped because he is such an unpleasant bastard.

Otherwise, you would have to treat The Handmaiden's Tale as a misogynist work too, because of the way misogynist men speak in that.

One word that has been taken out of context doesn't change the whole message

He says it and it's a sign that he's an awful bastard and no good husband material, as he first appeared. What next, ban Frozen? It's almost the same!

The Mog books are dreadfully unsound on cat nutrition. Eggs for breakfast every day? Tsk.

She didn't say ' he called me a slut but never mind at least he's a prince' she ditched him!

FFS, if you don't want him to read it find another book.
If you don't think it age appropriate, find one that is.
It's hardly rocket science and doesn't need such a reaction.

Put the book down and walk away.

Cory - do you still think it is ok for a young child to learn such words then?

As many PPs have pointed out, the meaning of the word "slut" has changed over time. As meanings tend to do with the evolution of language. I don't see anything wrong with the word in context in Dahl's poem. If you object to it, you could certainly edit it out or substitute a different word when reading to your child. But please don't think that your sensibilities should be applied universally to works of literature.

I know someone who has banned the word "hate" in her house. Her children aren't allowed to say it. Personally, I think this approach is loony, but it's her decision. If she believed that the word "hate" should be edited out of all children's books, that would move from a personal choice to an attempt to apply her standards universally. And that would take things a step beyond loony.

Since it was mentioned above, I must say that Lolita is one of the most brilliant novels of the 20th century. It is not in any way appropriate for children, I hasten to add.

maybe explain the word he probably doesn't know what it means in a modern or contemporary context, so explain it in both.

It's a bad word now sonny Jim. What else rhymes with (what ever the previous word is) Nut, that's a better word isn't it. Lets use that next time.