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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think 7 & 8 year olds need car seats

214 replies

justalittlelemondrizzle · 02/05/2016 23:58

My 7 & 8yo dds use booster seats in the car. Ive been shocked recently with people not bothering to use them. Dds were taken out last week by a friend. I asked if I should get the dd's seats and they said its fine as their 6yo doesn't need one anymore so my dds will be fine as theyre taller than her. Luckily dd's insisted they wanted their seats so I avoided a potentially awkward convo. I'm not one to preach to people about their parenting.
Another friend gave my eldest a lift home the other day, when she was dropped off, I went to the car and she wasn't sat on a booster and neither was her dd or 6yo son!
I took dds friend out today and she got in the back in the middle seat with no seat, I had a spare seat in the front for her and she moved but said she hadnt sat in one of these for ages.
These are all different children btw and none of them are taller than my eldest who is 125cm.
Is this the norm? Are people just not that fussed or am I OTT?

OP posts:
peggyundercrackers · 04/05/2016 10:25

stillmoving Could I ask what risk are we actually talking about here? Are there any articles with statistics about 1) number of car accidents in which kids involved 2) comparison between those with or without 'correct' / ideal car seats at 10 years old (eg)?

no there are only stats for children in accidents in cars. here is a link to a document written in 2010 www.theaa.com/public_affairs/reports/facts_about_road_accidents_and_children.pdf

also have a look at www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/ras30-reported-casualties-in-road-accidents#table-ras30002 - this is the stats for road accidents in 2014. it shows there was 18 children between 0-15 killed as a result of being a passenger in a car, 319 were seriously injured and 6903 were slightly injured.

definition for a slight injury is An injury of a minor character such as a sprain (including neck whiplash injury), bruise or cut which are not judged to be severe, or slight shock requiring roadside attention. This definition includes injuries not requiring medical treatment.

definition of a serious injury is An injury for which a person is detained in hospital as an “in-patient”, or any of the following injuries whether or not they are detained in hospital: fractures, concussion, internal injuries, crushings, burns (excluding friction burns), severe cuts, severe general shock requiring medical treatment and injuries causing death 30 or more days after the accident. An injured casualty is recorded as seriously or slightly injured by the police on the basis of information available within a short time of the accident. This generally will not reflect the results of a medical examination, but may be influenced according to whether the casualty is hospitalised or not. Hospitalisation procedures will vary regionally.

I don't think figures for 2015 are available as yet. the data doesn't show the reason people inside cars were injured and doesn't show if a more robust seat would make a difference to the outcome.

peggyundercrackers · 04/05/2016 10:39

if you have a rad of this document it breaks down the age differences between children, 0-4 then 5-7 then 8-11 then 12-16.

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/461917/ras30025.xls

peggyundercrackers · 04/05/2016 10:47

this is quite a good document as well because it shows Reported child casualties in accidents occurring between 7:30 and 8:59am or between 3:00 and 4:59pm on a school day, by road user type, severity, gender and age, Great Britain, latest available year

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/461922/ras30030.xls

it pretty much shows once they are over 7 years old they are more likely to be killed on their bike than in a car going to school... a very sobering thought.

tobysmum77 · 04/05/2016 17:53

Perhaps a a lot of people don't care what videos on you tube show. They just follow the guidelines laid he govt and follow them.

OK crash testing that you can view via you tube is entirely meaningless to the argument Confused.

You can't talk about risk assessing and not know what the actual risks are imo. But feel free to blindly follow whatever the government decided however many years ago.

For me hbb for a bit longer is no effort and therefore no issue. Fair enough in a taxi or if you have 3 in the back, or for carrying around town but fitted in the back of a family car it is hardly a big inconvenience.

peggyundercrackers · 04/05/2016 18:41

Tobysmum I think the problem with YouTube is you don't know which country the testing has taken place in nor do you know what standards they are using or how long ago the video was made, you obviously know the date it was posted but that's not really relevant.

I would also doubt people use YouTube as a method of research before they go and buy a car seat.

tobysmum77 · 04/05/2016 19:49

OK but uk companies use youtube to post up to date, relevant videos. You are free to use that information or not.

stilllovingmysleep · 04/05/2016 21:01

I also imagine uk car seat companies have a massive incentive in posting those videos, as they obviously want to sell as many car seats as possible. I bet next stage will be car seats for adults.

BeYourselfUnlessUCanBeAUnicorn · 04/05/2016 21:38

I've viewed the YouTube video of the crash test dummies, one in a hbb and one on a booster cushion. There was a huge difference in injuries. It was shocking. Both of mine have hbb. DS is 8 and it around 135 now, he will continue to use it. He has a booster cushion in DH's car and has been moaning about his hbb but I've told him it's safer which is more important. His friend who is a lot smaller than him sits on nothing in his own car and his (just) 5 year old sibling sits on a booster cushion. Nearly every parent I know doesn't use any/the appropriate car seats once they are out of the baby one. I think it disgusting and they are putting their child's life at risk. So many friends give lifts to children without seats. I would always get Hmm looks for refusing to do it. And these were way way under the age and weight limits.

OP, it doesn't matter that the booster cushions are recommended for your child's height. The simple fact is they are not as safe as a hbb. I've never even considered them. DCs will stay in hbbs until they are too tall, and I won't be getting them out at 135cm either.

Flashbangandgone · 04/05/2016 21:53

Ok, this is a probably a stupid question, but my understanding if my daughter (141cm) is tall enough for the strap of the seatbelt to pass over her shoulder 'normally' (height of strap can be altered on car so on lowest setting) then why does she need a booster seat, let alone a HBB? She's only just become tall enough for this and was on a booster until recently.

Flashbangandgone · 04/05/2016 21:56

Actually, if HBBs are safer than boosters, shouldn't we all have them (though without the 'booster' bit. Are car seats fundamentally in safely designed?

Flashbangandgone · 04/05/2016 21:56

I meant 'unsafely designed'

Flashbangandgone · 04/05/2016 22:09

The thing is, you could potentially readily design even safer seats than the current HBB, that enclosed the child (with plastic windows to let the light in) that would make HBBs seem like flimsy pieces of plastic in crash tests...

GreenMarkerPen · 04/05/2016 22:26

car seat are designed economically (i.e. as cheap as possible) and for 'standard' sizes. so usually adults of a certain hights and weights.
children up to 12 years old are (usualy) much smaller than that.

tbh if you look at the driver/front passenger seat, they are almost like children's hbb: shaped adjustable seat, adjustable head rest, height adjustable seatbelt...

BertieBotts · 04/05/2016 22:42

Flash, if she's over 135cm she doesn't need a booster seat under UK law.

Cars are designed around the shape of the average adult - not children. Cars have things like curtain airbags which fulfil the role of the "wings" on a high back booster.

Plus children are more easily injured than adults because they are lighter, their skeletons are softer and their brains are still developing.

When self driving cars become properly viable all of this safety equipment will be moot anyway.

Flashbangandgone · 04/05/2016 22:46

Flash, if she's over 135cm she doesn't need a booster seat under UK law.

True, but some appear to be suggesting I'm being reckless not having a HBB!

BertieBotts · 04/05/2016 22:51

If the lap belt fits across her pelvis/thighs rather than the soft tissue of her stomach and the shoulder belt fits across the middle of her shoulder and she's over 135cm then she's fine. It's likely that different cars have different seat depths and different seatbelt heights, and her build as well will all contribute to the likelihood that she needs one. The reality is that boosters and HBBs are designed to be used up to 150cm (many other European countries have this limit) so the height difference between 135 and 150cm is an overlap area.

BertieBotts · 04/05/2016 22:55

I would say you'd be reckless to follow the advice of some random person on the internet who has never seen your child or your car over the actual evidence in front of your face when you see them strapped into the seatbelt, booster, or whatever combination you like. :)

TooLazyToWriteMyOwnFuckinPiece · 04/05/2016 23:38

Do we need to disable curtain airbags too? (If they can be disabled).

Janecc · 04/05/2016 23:43

DD is still in a hbb. She is over the height limit. Maybe 138cm and also slightly over the weight limit at around 38kg. I want to keep her in it as long as possible but I don't know when that will be because she is very broad shouldered. I have a kiddy (German) car seat so I'm wanting her in it till it no longer fits.
I understand from talking with friends and on this thread that it is safer to have a child on a booster until the 150cm mark. However, can anyone tell me at what weight it generally becomes dangerous to have a child of over the 36kg on a booster seat. What I mean is when she no longer fits in her hbb, am I better to put her directly on the car itself or on a standard plastic booster?

Janecc · 04/05/2016 23:48

And I thought that having an accident risked snapping the child's neck if in the front. Side curtains aren't that strong. They went off on DD when she was in her hbb and she had a painful red mark. But the car was going slowly when a driver pulled out onto the car. Unless an expert corrects me, and as they are in the rear, I can only imagine these are designed also with children in mind.

Janecc · 04/05/2016 23:49

Sorry if in the front with the airbag on.

QueenOfTheHighCs · 04/05/2016 23:56

Just wanted to throw in a little story - I was in a car crash when I was 17 and the seat belt impact broke my ribs (whilst also saving my life!) and cut into the skin across my chest leaving a significant wound. All fairly minor compared to what could have happened. The seatbelt was correctly positioned across my 5ft6 frame. Can you imagine the damage to a child of a seat belt in the wrong position? Across the neck/over the stomach?

tobysmum77 · 05/05/2016 06:54

No one has said its reckless to not have a child over 135 in a hbb. Even with a 4 year old reckless is a bit strong, personally I would classify it where there is space as taking an unnecessary risk but risk can never be zero in a car anyway (lets face it avoiding crashing in the first place is the biggest thing).

135 is small for nothing, but whether a hbb is still needed or a cushion is really down to personal opinion.

Schwabischeweihnachtskanne · 05/05/2016 07:40

The issue of car seatbelts fitting children in the "grey area" height wise (over 135/140cm) varies hugely by car.

My old 7 seater was "van style" and the lowest setting on the seatbelts was only just low enough to sit in the right place on me (168cm)... I automatically adjusted the belt right down on my new car and it was way, way too low, and I can have it in the middle setting to sit correctly.

My 145 ish cm older children still sit on booster cushions (Germany) but the seat belts might just about be in the right place on the ordinary seat with the belt in the very lowest position actually - it would just be illegal here.

I don't think the belts could sit right on a 135cm child without a booster of some kind though - 135cm seems very teeny tiny indeed to me (as the mother of a tall and always broad shouldered 144cm nearly 9 year old who still uses a booster and a 120cm 5 year old :o )

The combination of the 36kg weight limit on most seats (including ones sold here in Germany) and the 150cm/ 12 year cut off age is weird though I think as according to the chart in the back of my DD's ancient "Red Book" at least 25% of girls will be over 36kg at 10 (my nearly 11 year old DD is 35kg). I suppose the assumption is that a 36kg child will also be over 150cm, but the 75th centile line on the height chart indicates a 144cm tall child, and the same line on the weight chart indicates 36kg, so statistically 1/4 of children must be over the weight limit for both hbb and cushions whilst being under the height limit for going seatless in countries with the 150cm guidelines.

I also wonder about the safety implications of a child being over the weight limit for their seat, although "Which" says to by height where they are under the height limit but over the weight limit... There must be loads and loads of kids sitting on hbb and booster seats they are too heavy for...

Obviously children are different shapes and some are too tall for a hbb at 140cm - it depends how much of their height is leg and how much body, and how broad their shoulders are - it is obviously a matter of common sense - when the child has to curl their spine or sit slightly sideways on the highest setting for a hbb they are too big!

The only hbbs for children over 36kg seem to be American, like this one which goes to 45kg American link - Amazon UK for 4 times the price but appears to have been discontinued by the manufacturer but is still on sale.

Otherwise UK and European seats mostly/ all seam to have the 36kg limit...

I do wonder why the 36kg limit is written on the seat if it has no acctual meaning, given that a 149cm 11 year old who weighs 44kg would be well within the healthy weight range...

murphyslaws · 05/05/2016 07:45

My friend had removed her car seat as she thought her 7 year old didn't need it. At the time she was 6. She had a massive accident and child suffered broken back in three places.

She was told if child was in a seat then that might of not happened. Luckily after two operations child was fine but she feels guilty.

Why take the risk. I'm not!