Which child is more unreasonable

[80schild]

For the past week I have had my boys with me quite a lot. Eldest is 7 (only just). Youngest is 5. Both are quite strong and I would say don't know their own strength.

5 yo has taken to jumping on DS1 back. He does it a lot throughout the day. In his mind he is playing with DS1. DS1 hates it and I have heard him at various points trying to get away from DS2 but DS2 keeps on jumping on his back.

Yesterday in the park it started up. DS2 joined in as his friends were there. However, it finished with 3 boys on DS1. I think he was quite frightened so he bit the first person on top of him on the leg - just so happened to be DS2. DH gave DS1 a huge bollocking about not biting and fair fighting, and said what he did was far worse than what DS2 had done. Personally, I had more sympathy with DS1 having 3 kids the same size as him on top of him.

This evening DS2 jumps on DS1 again. I heard DS1 say 'get off me' which he clearly didn't. DS1 wrestled DS2 to the ground and started twisting his arm behind his back.

I could hear DS2 say 'you're hurting me'. At this point I intervened and went slightly mad and gave both of them a punishment. They both cried.

DH thinks I was too harsh on our youngest, as he had never actually really hurt the eldest and he thinks it is playful.

I just see that DS1 us getting increasingly upset and wants to be left alone.

They have both been given numerous warnings about fighting and what will happen if they seriously hurt one another. A lot of the time I am quite calm about it but today I did go mad. The message just isn't sinking in particularly with DS2.

Was I unfair to DS2 for giving him the same consequence as DS1. I am just feeling it needs to stop otherwise I will end up at A&E. Please give me some sanity.

[BoneyBackJefferson]

redskirt3

Having skimmed through the first two thirds of the thread, the majority of the posters are for play that doesn't involve hurting someone else, against behaviour that causes someone else pain and that the parents need to deal with the situation before it gets out of hand.

why should anyone be ashamed of that?

[PovertyPain]

I don't understand this 'need' to allow, or actively encourage boys to play fight. It serves no purpose whatsoever, other than one getting the better of the other. It doesn't encourage them to grow up with a close bond or make them well rounded individuals as adults. It's a load of crap. If it was 'important' to let them do it, why aren't we encouraging girls to 'play fight'? It's a load of macho bull shit that your husband is encouraging and as they get older it will become more aggressive and is likely to encourage resentment between the boys, or resentment from one of the boys towards his brother/parents for not stepping in to protect him.

I'm speaking as the aunt, who became custodian, of two boys who had a very volatile relationship for years. Their parents, esp the father, treated the oldest as if he should magically have more sense than the youngest, so he got punished for retaliating to the behaviour of his brother. It took years of hard work to get them to treat each other as brothers and it's only now, as they're in their 20s that you can see the really close bond that they have. Please don't make the same mistake as their parents.

Bty, if you don't always see the youngest starting on his brother, is it possible that he's waiting to be out of sight, so he can start thus nonsense? If that is what's happening then he knows dammed rightly that his brother doesn't like it and is 'getting the boot in' when there are no witnesses.

[LouBlue1507]

Actually play fighting does have its benefits if you look into it :) Play fighting doesn't lead to a poor relationship, the parenting does!

[PovertyPain]

Then, why aren't girls encouraged to play fight?

[LouBlue1507]

I guess that's down to parenting choice. I know I play fought as a child (until schools got ridiculous with the red tape) and still do now with my partner :)

[Eeeek686]

Good on you OP, think you have got a handle on it now - immediate, calm and non negotiable sanctions that you know work will knock it on the head in no time.... I think sometimes we can spend too long ranting or lecturing and they just tune out or get habituated to it, iyswim. I think I'd start crying too if I thought it'd shut me up (or give the impression I'd got the message! )!

Thank goodness I've got a boy and a girl so I won't have to go through all this fighting and wrestling, is all I can say!
LOL.

[mummytime]

Umm my boy and girl used to play fight. When I did a self-defence course our teacher reckoned he could tell which young women had brothers - as they were rougher.
I had to step in when my youngest attacked/and hugged her big brother, there is a 7 year gap do he was really stuck - too old to retaliate but she could hurt him.

[DisgraceToTheYChromosome]

Speaking as someone who was regularly ganged up on by my younger brothers, there is no playfighting. Especially not in our case, where I got a rope burn round my neck, and DB2 was stabbed for taking the top of the milk out of turn.
40 years later, they're just people that I used to know.

[LouBlue1507]

Well that clearly wasn't playing, for it to be 'play' all participants have to be willing and engaged. What you suffered from was bullying and abuse :(
Play fighting does have its place but obviously only when you want to do it.

[diddl]

They need to both know that the moment one says "no" then the "game" ends.

It's like when people are tickled "in fun" & people are laughed at for not liking it & getting upset when it doesn't stop.

It's somehow not taken seriously as needing a willing participant, but that if you want to do it to spmeone it doesn't need consent as you are "only playing"

[DisgraceToTheYChromosome]

Spot on. Which is why my SIL doesn't permit it at all. It can get serious in the blink of an eye.

[whois]

Ugh don't be those parents that always punish the older one 'because they should know better'.

Step in and stop your DS2 from jumping on DS1. He doesn't like it FFS! If DS2 doesn't get off him when asked, then he needs to learn there are conveniences (I.e. DS1 might react to defend himself).

[DeltaSunrise]

I have 2 boys as well OP. Same age as yours 7 & 5.

Yes they do fight, yes it did sometimes get out of hand and yes sometimes I do have to step in and say "enough is enough" but they both absolutely 100% know that No means No and Stop means Stop.

As in your case, it was our younger one (then 3/4) constantly taking it too far and hurting or annoying his older brother (then 5/6) and the older one retaliating if I didn't get there quick enough. When I did get there I could never tell between the bickering who did/started what.

What I did, was sat them both down, explained that roughousing/play fighting was fine, the 3 rules were

1. no hitting/grabbing whatever of the faces
   
2. No means No
   
3. Stop means Stop.
   
   I told them that if they needed the other to stop whatever he was doing, he needed to shout "NO" or "STOP" as loud as possible so I or his dad could hear him wherever we were in the house and head straight to them.
   
   If ds2 (and it almost always was ds2) carried on after being told to stop or no, One of us was there instantly to punish him. Each and every time. He went into his bedroom and his Lego (favourite toy ever) came out and put away and ds1 got to come and spend some time with me making a fuss of him.
   
   Ds1 felt backed up by his parents, Ds2 soon learned what the consequences of his actions were and behaviour has been much better. The relationship between the boys has been brilliant since. And a good lesson that No means No and Stop means Stop learned by both.
   
   You need to help your ds1, give him strategies or solutions that you are happy for him to carry out if his brother jumps on him (come straight and tell you, shout No whatever you think) and punish ds2 each and every time he doesn't listen.

[FeralBeryl]

Oh I fucking HATE 'play fighting' it always, always ends up in a crying match as my lovely Dad used to say

OP I think you've had such a hard time because the way it's written, this poor defenceless kid is basically being 'jumped' by 3 other kids without an adult intervening. Then gets a bollocking for escaping.
That's probably not how it went at all, but that's how it read.
Definitely agree with the finding his currency! Be it a toy, money, activities, trips etc. But stick to it.
My youngest definitely gets away with far more, I admit I subconsciously 'baby' her and the bugger knows it.
Your elder DS needs to know that you will protect him, and that he's safe in his own home. For a time, whenever you hear 'get off' you need to run in and stop things there and then. DS1 also needs to come and snitch on his brother rather than waiting until he gets hurt.
It is hard OP, but you'll get there. The joys eh!

[Ricardian]

Oh I fucking HATE 'play fighting'

It is beloved of fathers with hangups about their sexuality, who are convinced that unless their son behave like some sort of caricature of 1950s masculinity they're going to catch teh gayz.

That such tossers can't/won't see that boxing and wrestling are the most homoerotic sports imaginable is, of course, one of life's great ironies.

[differentnameforthis]

There is no excuse for your ds1 biting anyone, but I think (if I were a kid) I might lash out if three kids bundled on me, and I was powerless to stop it.

Sounds like you are not doing enough to discourage your ds 2 from jumping on his brother. When you heard ds1 tell his brother to get off him, why didn't you or your dh intervene? You only intervened that evening because your ds2 was hurting.

And "fair fighting?" Three on one? Your dh needs to have a word with himself!

[RhiWrites]

When I was a kid as the eldest of three my sisters would pull my hair and shove me about, dig their sharp nails into my skin. But if I pushed them off me I was being a "big bully" who was old enough to know better and they were "only little girls". This went on even when the youngest was older than I was when it first started. It wasn't all the time but I really felt the unfairness of always being the oldest one who could take it. Wasn't I a little girl too?

Please keep saying no and stopping it when your younger boy jumps on the older one. It's not fair for the older boy to have to defend himself and then be punished for it.

[GoblinLittleOwl]

Why have you not stopped the youngest jumping on the oldest earlier?

[Katedotness1963]

Consistent punishment when the youngest jumps on his brother is needed. As soon as he does it, off to the naughty step/his room/whatever punishment your family uses. Every single time!

Also tell your eldest he can't cry about being jumped on nine times out of ten and then be okay with it because that confuses his brother.

Mine have the same age gap as yours and now, as teenagers, are as close as brothers could be. Everything will be okay!

[I8toys]

I have two boys. Sometimes DS2 "winds up" his older brother but his behavior is more irritating him by waving his hands in his face nothing really physical- he gets told off in no uncertain terms to keep his hands to himself and move himself away.

Your DS2 needs disciplining not your DS1 - poor kid.

[CodyKing]

There is no excuse for your ds1 biting anyone, but I think (if I were a kid) I might lash out if three kids bundled on me, and I was powerless to stop it.

Face down arms by side - what choice did he have with three of them on him?

[differentnameforthis]

Face down arms by side - what choice did he have with three of them on him?

Erm...none...which I acknowledged when I pointed out that I may be tempted to do the same in that situation