Which child is more unreasonable

[80schild]

For the past week I have had my boys with me quite a lot. Eldest is 7 (only just). Youngest is 5. Both are quite strong and I would say don't know their own strength.

5 yo has taken to jumping on DS1 back. He does it a lot throughout the day. In his mind he is playing with DS1. DS1 hates it and I have heard him at various points trying to get away from DS2 but DS2 keeps on jumping on his back.

Yesterday in the park it started up. DS2 joined in as his friends were there. However, it finished with 3 boys on DS1. I think he was quite frightened so he bit the first person on top of him on the leg - just so happened to be DS2. DH gave DS1 a huge bollocking about not biting and fair fighting, and said what he did was far worse than what DS2 had done. Personally, I had more sympathy with DS1 having 3 kids the same size as him on top of him.

This evening DS2 jumps on DS1 again. I heard DS1 say 'get off me' which he clearly didn't. DS1 wrestled DS2 to the ground and started twisting his arm behind his back.

I could hear DS2 say 'you're hurting me'. At this point I intervened and went slightly mad and gave both of them a punishment. They both cried.

DH thinks I was too harsh on our youngest, as he had never actually really hurt the eldest and he thinks it is playful.

I just see that DS1 us getting increasingly upset and wants to be left alone.

They have both been given numerous warnings about fighting and what will happen if they seriously hurt one another. A lot of the time I am quite calm about it but today I did go mad. The message just isn't sinking in particularly with DS2.

Was I unfair to DS2 for giving him the same consequence as DS1. I am just feeling it needs to stop otherwise I will end up at A&E. Please give me some sanity.

[NorksAreMessy]

Play fighting is still fighting.

You can't expect little children to know what is the sort of fighting that is allowed and encouraged, and which is not. Especially as similar actions occur in both types.

[5608Carrie]

Ewe exactly what I thought.

[Ricardian]

I can't get over DH giving DS1 a huge bollocking about fair fighting

I can. They're playing favourites. Poor kid: he should be able to trust his parents to protect him, but his father's playing macho bullshit and his mother's too useless to do anything other than give warnings that aren't followed through and bleat about she's upset (she's not the one being attacked, but there you go). Sad.

Be a parent. Protect your child from being hurt.

[clam]

FGS, protect your elder son. He's stated very clearly that he doesn't like or want this any more, yet you're allowing your younger son to continue. Ds1 has, not unreasonably actually, retaliated and been punished. Unfair.

[Idliketobeabutterfly]

Yikes, you've asked for solutions and they were offered by a few different people.

[mummytime]

I think you need to talk to DH away from the boys.
Was it always just wrestling with his brother? Did he ever want to stop but his brother didn't/wouldn't?
What about did his brother want him to stop but he wouldn't?
Check his views on other things like tickling.

This is family bullying- and it's very hard, as you just can't get away from it.

My rule has always been if there are tears it stops, and little ones can only irritate big ones so much (and a bit of actions have consequences). It's not fair for the big one always being to blame (or the boy).

[SoThatHappened]

However, it finished with 3 boys on DS1. I think he was quite frightened

I cannot believe you stood and watched that. You left your poor DS to fend for himself and had to bite a child to try and get out. And then he got a bollocking for defending himself.

You are teaching him he doesnt matter. That other children can all do what they like to him, you wont intervene and if he tries to defend himself he will get punished. Good christ what a lesson you are teaching him about his self worth.

[meridithssister]

You cannot expect Ds1 to have the same tolerance to ds2's behaviour as you would. His reaction of biting was an age appropriate response to deal with what was happening to him at the time.
I would tell ds2 his behaviour is not acceptable and give him a clear boundary, such as no touching at all or using gentle hands. Ask ds1 what he would like the boundary to be, and explain to both of them they will be expected to stick to it.

Praise good behaviour whenever they play nicely together, and give ds1 the attention of ds2 breaks the rule. Send ds2 away from his brother and give ds1 a cuddle. Ds2 will work out he would prefer the cuddles and attention to being sent to his room.

[Enkopkaffetak]

I think OP is getting a hard time here.

She has admitted she has realised things are not working the way they have been doing them.

Additionally it is really difficult if you and your dp have different ideas of what is normal behaviour.

OP I do think there is a lot of good advice in all of this.

You need to have a firm talk with both of your boys. Ensure your ds 2 knows that from that point onward jumping will NOT be tolerated tell your ds1 that if it happens without one of you there to call you and ensure he is then backed up.

Tell your dh that you expect him to back up DS1 here if he says he doesnt want it to happen then he is entitled to say no and will get back up. If he says it is just what boys do then tell him that you expect your children to know that no means no.

May also be worth asking ds1 if he would like some time away from ds2

It is a really tough stage to get through but you will come through the other end..

[DancingDinosaur]

It probably hurts ds1. I wouldn't like a child to do that to me and I'm much bigger. You need to make ds2 stop doing it. Otherwise ds1 will eventually hurt him back, its already escalating. He hasn't got a choice has he if the adults in his life can't stop it.

[Lovemylittlebears]

Maybe sit down with them all and explain to ds2 that ds1 does not like him jumping on his back and it upsets him and he is not allowed to do it again. Then maybe help ds2 do some perspective taking and use an example of something he doesn't like that someone has done to him before and How would he feel if X always did y - well that's how ds2 feels exactly. Then explicitly tell him what the consequence will be if he does it again. If you jump on ds1 back again this is the consequence. Pick something that will be a big enough deterrent that if he experiences it once he won't do it again but not inappropriate deterrent. Eg if you jump on ds1 back again then all PlayStation games are removed for rest of day/24 hours etc. Also make sure ds1 knows he is not allowed to do it either. Then reward behaviour when they are being conscientious of one another intermittently throughout the day. Ds1 that was nice helping ds2 carry his stuff upstairs shall we play your favourite game now for five minutes or ds2 you played really nicely with ds1 and didn't jump on his back here's a favourite sticker. Then hopefully in a couple of days it will all be old news...just a suggestion good luck!

[FeliciaJollygoodfellow]

I think we can all agree that with benefit for hindsight we'd do some things differently? And also that we might be able to see things from another angle once we've gone away and thought about it?

A couple of incidents are not going to damage him and OP has had some good advice amongst the laments for poor DC1.

OP do talk to your husband away from the children and tell him you see the behaviour more often, you will guide him. He doesn't get the wade in and be the big I Am. And talk to DC1 and 2, maybe separately and together and let them know what's wrong, and how you will deal with it. Also, maybe let DC1 know you have his back and you're sorry you didn't stop things before they got out of hand.

[Eeeek686]

Skim read the post but fully read all of your posts, Op, and think you are being given a bit of a hard time, particularly in light of your more recent posts that until recently DS 1 was an participant... Thing is, it is fine for DS1 to no longer want to do the brotherly wrestling, and also probably quite normal for DS2 to take a little while to get the message - it's usual for young kids to take a bit for these message to sink in but I would day that that time had passed and her should now be adhering to rules and leaving DS 1 alone, or else sanctions should definitely follow as you deem appropriate.

What I don't understand is your apparent anguish/concern that whenever DS 2 gets pulled off/up on jumping his brother, he bursts in to tears, as though that is a problem? Obviously getting told off is upsetting for him but then maybe he should avoid these actions that result in the reprimand?? Surely he can and does understand that? Otherwise, tbh it sounds like DS2 may be playing you a little by turning on the water works when told off to try to gain sympathy.... I have nephews who have been through this, and at 10&13 are still doing so on occasion, and toner nephew was a bugger for this and my sister - & in particular BiL - couldn't see it and poor older nephew always got an equal or greater telling off. Used to drive me nuts!

Ds2 knows what he is doing, believe me!

[SoThatHappened]

Maybe the OP should give us her address. 1 of us can jump repeatedly on her back and she can see how god damn funny and cute it is to play fight.

Then all three of us can dog pile on top of her. I bloody bet she'd bite one of us.

5 isnt a tiny baby, it must hurt to have a child that size jump on a 7 year old.

[corythatwas]

OP you can't really come on and ask for advice and then when people are giving it tell them they must be the Messiah.

What everybody is seeing here is that this is a situation where you need to step in every time and give a clear consequence, ignoring the tears. Every time. Regardless of what your dh thinks.

What you are teaching both your ds's at the moment is contrary to any rules governing the society they live in.

Your ds1 needs to see that he has a right to expect that no means no. He needs to see that this is what adults believe and that they will back him up. He needs to see that the adults around him have the power to stop any bullying. He needs to see that his world is governed by proper rules that apply to everybody regardless of whether they like being told off.

Your ds2 needs to learn that no means no. He also needs to learn safer ways of playing: as others have pointed out, this behaviour in a child of school age can result in serious injuries. He needs to learn that you have the power to stop any behaviour of his that is unsatisfactory. He needs to learn that it doesn't matter whether he cries or not: there are certain rules he has to learn.

[Permanentlyexhausted]

Do you know what reading this I can't take many of you that seriously.

Well you should. Because everyone has told you the same thing. You need to control your DS2.

It's crap when you feel everyone has ganged up on you and no one is coming to support you, isn't it? I hope you can see the analogy I'm making.

[corythatwas]

I agree that the big problem here is that you seem to become so distressed because your youngest cries. Many children do cry when you correct them: they don't like it. But you would not be doing him a favour if you stop teaching him what he needs to learn because it upsets you when he cries.

[nopel]

This was my life as a child, being permanently assaulted by my younger sister. My parents did nothing and saw it as 'rough play'. They totally favoured my sister being the boisterous little one and I was over sensitive cry baby. If I retaliated I got bollocked.

She stamped on my face once and made my nose bleed and I still got the blame. Don't allow it to continue, it's a bloody horrible to feel so helpless.

[sallyhasleftthebuilding]

I think this whole play fighting needs to stop - because it generally turns nasty - does here anyway!!

Mine are told to stop - warned one or other will get hurt -

I think you need DH on side because however they view it - it's upsetting to see your children hurting each other -

I tell mine that they need to support each other as there are plenty of mean people in the world - and hurting each other isn't allowed.

Ask him how he would feel if someone kept annoying him till he snapped? Your DS1 is getting aggressive because he's sick of being hurt.

Punish - what usually works? Missed TV? No pocket money? Treat missed?

How about rewards instead for plying nice?

[corythatwas]

I have realised with hindsight that I was a bit of a bully to my elder brother, not physically (he was 5 years older) but verbally. My parents did tell me off mildly, but a lot of the time they just let me get away with it- because I was so much younger, because I was cute, perhaps even because I was "clever" and they secretly rather admired somebody who could out-argue a 10yo aged 5. Of course there was nothing clever or admirable about it: it was bullying and it should have been stopped.

The sad thing is, it really affected his self-confidence for many years after. We are very good friends now and he would never dream of blaming me, but I can see how much harm I did and I just wish somebody had stopped me.

[Dragongirl10]

Comments are a bit harsh here tonight OP...

It sounds like you are catching up with the new dynamic from your two ds s,

l would immediately remove the perpetrator each and every time they did the jumping on the others back or other play fighting, and put him in his room alone for 15 mins, increase it by 5 mins each time, he will soon associate this activity with being left to play alone. If your two are anything like mine they will hate being seperated.

If out make him sit somewhere really boring for a few minutes......l have been known to sit one of my dcs in the corner of a supermarket for 10 mins whilst we stood nearby and ignored them. They didn't do it twice.

l agree you do need your DH to trust your judgement and back you up without question. Tell him directly this is what needs to happen.

Good luck..hopefully this stage will soon pass.

[MonsterDeCookie]

Teach them to "tap out". They need a word that means this isn't fun anymore. If the word is "bananas" then as soon as either kid utters it the play fight is done. No more physical contact. DS2 is young so he's going to need practice. Explain it to them both and tell them for the next week they can only wrestle with you present. Make it fun. Let them take turns yelling "bananas" or whatever. Heap on the praise for them when they disengage straight away. They will need practice and lots of it. If you just keep screaming at DS2 they will eventually stop wrestling but it doesn't sound like that's hat DS1 wants. He just wants to be able to feel in control and safe. They may need help sorting out more non wrestling games while they are learning how to tap out.

[FuzzyOwl]

Well said permanentlyexhaused.

DS2 knows exactly what he is doing and he has already learnt that you don't follow through with threats, and that tears and pretend amnesia works. You have to change this pattern immediately and you have to protect DS1. I am sorry you feel I picked upon because everyone is saying the same thing and yes, being bullied is unpleasant but your son is the one being bullied and you should be his protector. Imagine for a moment that DS2 was a neighbour's son and DS1 was getting this upset - you would prevent them playing and do something please tell me you would because that is what a parent does!

[EweAreHere]

OP, I am by no stretch of the imagination a perfect parent to my 3 DCs.

But there are consequences for poor behaviour, not just warnings and I don't get sucked in by fake tears. And believe me, my boys in particular know how to wind each other up. And their sister definitely knows how to throw in and try to get them into trouble. I'm on to all of them.

And when I feel my husband isn't seeing the bigger picture and treating a particular child unfairly due to 'older' when the 'younger' one in the scenario knows fine well what they're doing, I step in to make sure he does see it.