Which child is more unreasonable

[80schild]

For the past week I have had my boys with me quite a lot. Eldest is 7 (only just). Youngest is 5. Both are quite strong and I would say don't know their own strength.

5 yo has taken to jumping on DS1 back. He does it a lot throughout the day. In his mind he is playing with DS1. DS1 hates it and I have heard him at various points trying to get away from DS2 but DS2 keeps on jumping on his back.

Yesterday in the park it started up. DS2 joined in as his friends were there. However, it finished with 3 boys on DS1. I think he was quite frightened so he bit the first person on top of him on the leg - just so happened to be DS2. DH gave DS1 a huge bollocking about not biting and fair fighting, and said what he did was far worse than what DS2 had done. Personally, I had more sympathy with DS1 having 3 kids the same size as him on top of him.

This evening DS2 jumps on DS1 again. I heard DS1 say 'get off me' which he clearly didn't. DS1 wrestled DS2 to the ground and started twisting his arm behind his back.

I could hear DS2 say 'you're hurting me'. At this point I intervened and went slightly mad and gave both of them a punishment. They both cried.

DH thinks I was too harsh on our youngest, as he had never actually really hurt the eldest and he thinks it is playful.

I just see that DS1 us getting increasingly upset and wants to be left alone.

They have both been given numerous warnings about fighting and what will happen if they seriously hurt one another. A lot of the time I am quite calm about it but today I did go mad. The message just isn't sinking in particularly with DS2.

Was I unfair to DS2 for giving him the same consequence as DS1. I am just feeling it needs to stop otherwise I will end up at A&E. Please give me some sanity.

[corythatwas]

And agree that there is a lot to be said for having a no-play-fighting rule. They can work off their physical energy in all sorts of other ways.

[80schild]

I didn't see it otherwise I would have. They had all been playing together really nicely, went behind some trees for a couple of mins and 5 mins layer DS2 comes crying that DS1 bit him. DH assumed it was DS1 in the wrong and gave him a bollocking. It was only on the way home DS1 broke down and cried and told him what had happened.

We had a big hug and I made DS2 tell the truth to DH. Which he did and they both apologised. Personally, I thought the bite marks DS1 left in his leg was probably enough of a punishment. I didn't think he would do it again today.

[MrsMulward]

OP I don't have much in the way of practical advice- other than now you have seen how much it's upsetting DS1, you're in a position to take action. I think the key is to be consistent with DS2 about understanding that no means no. I think you're getting an unfairly hard time here, and I hope you get more useful tips. My DSs are smaller and one bites the other after being provoked and provoked and provoked- it's very hard to know what to do - biting is unacceptable but the "innocent' one isn't very innocent at all

[corythatwas]

Well, you did say in your OP that your ds2 jump on ds1's back a lot throughout the day and that he hates it.

So now is the time to tell ds1 that this is no longer allowed, tell him he could hurt ds1 and that he must never do it again. Then if he does do it again, immediate consequences.

[littledrummergirl]

DH assumed it was DS1 in the wrong and gave him a bollocking.

Do you think perhaps it's worth finding out the facts next time before deciding what happened?

Why did your Dh assume ds1 was in the wrong?

In my experience children are bullied because somewhere down the line an adult has given permission. Maybe worth remembering next time your ds2 is assaulting ds1 by jumping on him and being told its ok by his parents inaction or reaction in blaming the victim.

[CodyKing]

blaming the victim.

That's a good point - if DS2 did this to another non family member would DH say "it's just boys being boys?"

There is a fine line between acceptable at home and acceptable at school - maybe want to teach him now before he forgets the boundaries

[onlyslightlyinterested]

Boys are bloody hard work op, but rewarding in so many ways. People round here are being very harsh.

[80schild]

I am not anguished about DS2 tears. I just always thought that once he is crying then he has got the message of the punishment - maybe he is playing me a bit.

After today I think DS2 knows he can't get away with it anymore. He had a long timeout. Thank you for those who have offered constructive advice.

To the woman who wants to come over and beat me up - if as an adult that is how you round choose to deal with things can I assume your patents were crap? They must have been because my kids are 5 and 7. They behave like children. You are a grown up still behaving like a child.

[GreaseIsNotTheWord]

Wow...the op has had some really horrible comments directed at her. The behaviour of both boys is normal for that age IMO...not desirable and it needs to be dealt with, but it's not a sign of future asbo's to come

My boys are 6 and 8 op. They play beautifully together one minute (or for days on end) and then all hell breaks loose and they argue and fight.

Both of your boys are in the wrong IMO. Ds2 needs to be told, firmly, that jumping on his brother stops NOW. 5 is not too young for punishments IMO.

However...this is NOT an equal 'fight' even if ds2 instigates it. There's a huge difference between my two in size, strength, emotional maturity. But it's difficult when you have two so close in age because it's easy to forget that ds1 has two years on ds2. They're into the same things, do very similar activities, have the same bedtime...get treated the same in so much that you forget that some (minor) allowances do need to be made for the younger. Your ds2 doesn't seem to be trying to hurt ds1...he's being a typical pissy, annoying younger sib, which ds1 needs to learn to deal with without resorting to actually hurting ds2 in retaliation IMO.

Whatever ds2 does to ds1, I've drummed it into ds1 that he needs to remove himself from ds2 and tell me or dh. If ds2 wallops him one, I would not accept him pinning ds2 down or twisting his arm behind his back. Because hurting a younger and smaller child (sibling or not) is not acceptable IMO. I will deal with ds2's behaviour, not allow ds1 free reign to do something back in response.

I think you were right to give both a bollocking, and I would have with mine. I would also then have talked to them separately.

[Permanentlyexhausted]

If you haven't seen the incident which, let's face it, is likely to be most of the time, then you need to establish what's happened before administering a telling off or a punishment.

Assuming no one needs absolutely immediate medical attention, sit them both down together and ask one to explain what happened. Don't let the other interrupt. Then ask the other for their version. Then apportion blame and punishment as necessary. Alternatively, separate them and ask one to tell you their version. When they've finished ask them whether they think their sibling will tell them the same story. Nine times out of ten you'll see a guilty look cross their face, so ask them if there is anything they want to change about their story. Then get the other ones version.

That way you can take the immediate shock out of the situation. Everyone can deal with it calmly, and everyone gets to calmly tell their side and feel they have been listened to.

[GreaseIsNotTheWord]

To the woman who wants to come over and beat me up



Really? What the hell is wrong with some people!

[EveryoneElsie]

FFS tell the youngest to stop jumping on his brother. The kid has tried asking nicely, hes tried yelling, he;'s been jumped by 3 of them and resorted to biting. Now he's being punished as well.
Seriously, put a stop to it. Its bullying.

[Flowerbunty]

I am horrified at how many people are jumping on op here!
I have a 3yo and 7yo. It is so hard to police them at all times and unfortunately fighting does happen. My 3yo is terrible to his older brother and my 7yo is becoming less and less tolerant of him.

OP I think the main thing you can do is show your eldest that you are being proactive in showing that you're trying to stop DS2s behaviours, that way he doesn't feel like he's not being listened to. Sit down and tell him that while you won't always be there to stop it happening that you will try your best but also that it is never ok to retaliate back and it enforces DS2s actions xx

[littledrummergirl]

The behaviour of both boys is normal for that age

No, it's really not.

[GreaseIsNotTheWord]

The behaviour of both boys is normal for that age

No, it's really not

Interesting insight. Very illuminating.

[corythatwas]

Greasels, the OP did actually say in her OP that her youngest is the same size as her eldest. Which does not seem implausible: some 5yos are actually bigger than some only-just-turned 7yos. And being only-just-turned 7 doesn't necessarily mean you are stronger than any 5yo.

[PNGirl]

I think one of the things to be careful of as they get bigger and stronger is that frustration and sibling rivalry can go in a few seconds from messing about to white-hot rage. And one won't necessarily realise the other one has snapped until they get a punch! When I was about 10 my best friend shoved her 8 year old sister off a bunk bed because the 8 year old was winding her up and she broke her collarbone. I still remember how angry my friend looked.

I think a safe word is a good idea.

[waitingforsomething]

Sothathappened I can't quite believe you have written that. Im not sure the op ever said that she thinks any of this is funny and a veiled threat to go round and give her a taste of this is very unpleasant.
Op people are being horrible to you and very holy about their own perfect parenting. The op has admitted that thing are not right here so laying into her isn't really helping.
Although responses are harsh I agree that DS2 is more in the wrong - age 5 he can understand that. Perhaps try taking away toys/tv till he gets the message. Good luck with a more peaceful future!

[HoneyDragon]

Please do not set your boys on a path where it's considered OK to do something physically that the other party has rejected. Even if ds1 starts off saying it's ok, as soon as he says no that should be it. Game over.

Your Dh is hugely at fault in this. The moment the boys were out of his sight something happened that made one sibling bite another. As it was such an unusual occurrence did it not occur to him to addressed at had happened rather than place all the blame on your eldest. It's so so so important we teach our children that they have rights over their body and that they don't have to be subjected to ANYTHING that makes them feel uncomfortable, or scared them or hurts them. It's one of the most important ways you can protect them.

[Atenco]

I don't think people are being too harsh in general. We have all witnessed this type of behaviour of the younger child where as soon as the older one reacts they are in trouble, and, personally, it makes my blood boil.

But I'm glad you are taking this on board, OP.

[PoundingTheStreets]

80s child - as someone who has had to deal with a 'play-fighting' dynamic between two DC, I know how hard this can be to deal with without getting sucked into an ever-worsening cycle of negative parenting.

I don't claim to have all the answers and still experience regular fails. But here's what works:

1. Try to engineer situations so that the play-fighting doesn't start in the first place - whether this is engaging the children in separate activities, having one-to-one time with them, arranging playdates, etc. Bored children create their own fun. This is actually a good thing, but like all life skills, it requires some tuition. If they don't learn how to channel that creativity into something constructive, they play fight and the inevitable fall out results.
   

1. Recognise what each child contributes to the situation and talk to them about it. I had a situation where it was always DS that hurt DD. But DD used to deliberately goad and push DS into snapping. DS was always dealt with firmly for losing it. He was taught that provocation is a mitigating factor but it is not an excuse. DD was also taught that while nothing she does means she deserves to be hit, she has to recognise that everyone has a breaking point and can snap. For her own safety, she needs to recognise when others are approaching that breaking point, quite aside from the issue of her learning when it's ok to be provocative because she's standing up for herself as opposed to provocative because she's being a PITA which could easily result in her having difficulty managing friendships, etc.
   

1. Role play. Once they've calmed down enough to talk without getting defensive, go over the situation and ask them to think about other ways they could have dealt with it.
   

1. Encourage them to say sorry for their own part in any misdemeanour (regardless of whether the other party does so) and to mean it (i.e try harder next time), but ensure they are not being taught that this doesn't mean taking full responsibility if someone else was also at fault.
   

1. Positive reinforcement any time they do any of the above off their own back.

[MidniteScribbler]

Just be the parent. If DS2 jumps on DS1, grab him and stick him in his room. None of this pussyfooting around. I can guarantee you, that if you don't put an end to it, that instead of mumsnet, you'll be having a chat with a school principal.

[redskirt3]

Thank God for the more humane posters arriving on the last one third of this thread. I sincerely hope that the mindset of the first two thirds is not representative of UK society. "Oh look, a person feeling vulnerable and looking a bit weak - let's go lay into her". You should be ashamed of yourselves you bullies.

OP I have learned some useful things about parenting my own kids from reading this thread, thank you for posting.

[timelytess]

Poor DS1. He should be able to live his life without people physically jumping on him. DS2 is lucky his brother doesn't retaliate. The DH sounds like an unpleasant character too. What are you teaching poor DS1 about his place in this world? That it doesn't matter about him, that anyone can hurt him or shout at him and no-one will care. The poor, poor, child.