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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Mother sues for £20k for being discouraged from bf while the wave machine was on

1000 replies

sizeofalentil · 02/05/2016 12:54

Daily Mirror link to the story here.

I'm totally for breastfeeding wherever and whenever, but I wouldn't want to eat my sandwiches in a swimming pool - they are so germy, like a human soup, so not sure a swimming pool with a wave machine on would be the best place to bf. Plus, obviously in this case there was the waves.

I realise that getting out of the water, especially if she had other kids, with a hungry baby would be a massive faff, but wouldn't the wave machine splash the baby and make it choke?

Serious question: AIBU to think this? Is bf in a swimming pool a done thing? Genuinely curious.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
Jasonandyawegunorts · 12/05/2016 07:54

breastfeed away from other people

At the pool side is hardly away from other people is it.

Jasonandyawegunorts · 12/05/2016 08:02

Although after Seeing the chair in question you might have a point.

Mother sues for £20k for being discouraged from bf while the wave machine was on
LogicalThinking · 12/05/2016 15:20

She was offered a chair out of the water. She was asked to leave the water therefore, and to breastfeed while sitting in the chair.
Outrageous! She was offered a chair rather than sitting in a wave pool where the waves get pretty big and knock people over. She was still sharing the same public space with the same people, she wasn't being hidden away or covered up. She was simply offered a chair in a safer, more appropriate place

The 'offer of privacy and comfort' is a request to breastfeed away from other people.
You are out of your mind! I welcomed the offer of privacy, I didn't always want it but sometimes it made me feel a whole lot more comfortable. I wasn't concerned about other people's sensibilities, I just wanted to breastfeed in private sometimes. If I was offered it and didn't want it, I would simply say 'no thank you'.
An offer and a request are two completely different things. I do not understand how you can confuse one with the other.

CloneMeNow · 12/05/2016 15:38

Nothing wrong with feeding in a swimming pool. I did lots of times. Getting out and sitting on the poolside just makes you both get cold.

Jasonandyawegunorts · 12/05/2016 15:42

Did you do it in the shallow section while the waves were going?

CloneMeNow · 12/05/2016 15:47

Not lucky enough to have a wave pool nearby, sadly. Would I have done it in a wave pool? If I judged it safe, there's not reason I wouldn't have. I have BF in the sea, with small shallow waves.

Jasonandyawegunorts · 12/05/2016 15:59

I have BF in the sea, with small shallow waves.

This is a shallow calmer one... would you breastfeed in that?
the waves getting bigger and stronger.

You must be able to see why the offer of a chair in something like that chair isn't madness?

tobysmum77 · 12/05/2016 16:39

Ultimately, it is people like this woman who will make the western world a place where society understands that boobs are not just for male entertainment, which is apparently a context where exposed boobs are perfectly acceptable.

I dont agree with this. She will piss people off both male and female with her lactivism. Women should be standing up for the rights of all women, not just for those who are breastfeeding. Lactivists dont necessarily think that women should be able to choose to breast or bottle feed which is anti feminist.

Women need to challenge all the discretion shite yes absolutely. But that should be all women not just 'lactivists' (who tbh I have little time for)

mathanxiety · 12/05/2016 19:19

Have you seen the photo of the actual wave pool from the DM, Jason? Do you think a woman would wade into the pool you linked to and try carrying a wriggling baby or feed him? Do you think women are imbeciles?

The think is, Tobysmum, women who are not fairly militant are not going to face off with people who ask them to breastfeed discreetly. It is the lactivists as a group and women who are generally unbothered by what lifeguards or zoo attendants or shop employees or managers of McDonalds think of them who are going to pave the way.

Math - maybe they're not worried about 'doing favours' for other women, maybe they're just concentrating on feeding their babies?
That is what all women are doing when they breastfeed. Those who are doing it in the ladies room and those who are sitting poolside and those in the pool doing it. The point is, nobody has a right to 'offer a woman a seat elsewhere' when she is minding her own breastfeeding business in a place she has decided is suitable for her and for her baby.

The point that lactivists are making is that breastfeeding is no business of anyone else, and it is not meant as a sexually provoking act any more than walking down a street in a short skirt or any other clothing while female is meant as a sexually provoking act. Sadly, breasts have become so fetishised in our culture that it is necessary to remind society at large that not every single thing that women choose to do with their bodies is meant for titillation or can be assumed to be designed to titillate.

I cannot understand how people are so sucked in by the word 'offered' that is being put forth by the pool management and by the midwife (no less). Do you really believe this was nothing more than a kind 'offer' -- of a seat away from where the woman was originally minding her own business (without apparently being knocked over and in a place where there were undoubtedly others who were holding babies, or were pregnant and susceptible to being upended by the waves in the case of the pool), and away from where other people could maybe see the appalling sight of a little bit of boob, in the case of the hospital waiting room.
childrensleisure.co.uk/images/pendle_wavelenghts.jpg This is Pendle Wavelengths wave pool, which is the actual pool in quiestion. As you can see, there are women and small children sitting in the zero depth area. They are up to their hips in water..
www.pendleleisuretrust.co.uk/images/news/thumbnails/51.jpg Same section of the pool. How deep would you say this is?
I am assuming this is where the woman was breastfeeding. You are assuming she was out of her depths in some sort of tsunami waves.
lh4.googleusercontent.com/-4GT3ySrYWx4/AAAAAAAAAAI/AAAAAAAAACM/vwSiG_cEsTI/photo.jpg You can clearly see how shallow it is, and that there is a gradual slope.

www.dayoutwiththekids.co.uk/family-fun/Pendle_Wavelengths_Swimming_Pool/2158
From the online brochure:
'The 25m swimming pool at Pendle Wavelengths has a gently sloping beach which edges into the warm water, ideal for young children and a nice place to sit and watch them play.
For the bigger jobs the leisure pool also has a ceiling high water slide (that's mainly open flume but includes a black hole feature!) plus a wave machine that fills the pool with swell at regular intervals! It's pretty strong so be sure to start out in the shallows when the waves start and get the hang of things before progressing, especially if you're not the only body that you're having to keep up! And be sure to wear a costume not a wetsuit as there are no zips allowed on the slide'

-- So they accept that parents will be bringing babies and small children who may need to be held. They state that there is a place that is nice for babies/small children/parents to hang out, and they suggest that for those wishing the wave pool experience starting out in the shallows is a good idea for those holding someone else in their arms. Quite clearly they do not forbid holding of others even in the area where the waves are strongest.

I would disagree with the fundamentalist 'breast is best' element of lactivists' general agenda. But I applaud their refusal to countenance anything but complete freedom when it comes to time and place of breastfeeding, and in the case of Pendle Wavelengths pool, unless it can be proven that the wave pool was a dangerous place to (a) hold a baby of eight months and (b) everyone who was doing the same was 'kindly offered a chair at the side of the pool', and (c) knowing it was dangerous to hold eight month old babies in the water there were signs posted asking patrons not to, then the wave pool hasn't a leg to stand on, because clearly the lifeguard was focusing only on the breastfeeding and allowed squeamishness to get in the way of common sense.

Activists always piss people off. Suffragettes did it, Women's Libbers did it. But guess what? You get to vote and to work and to drive a car and fly a plane and become a doctor and divorce your husband and still see your children afterwards because of activists who stood up for the rights of all women.

Women should be standing up for the rights of all women, not just for those who are breastfeeding.
Should campaigners against FGM be upbraided because they focus just on this one issue?
How about my old school friend whose job is in the area of improving pre natal care provision in a certain region in Africa? Or the women who are campaigning for sanpro for schoolgirls in underdeveloped parts of the world?
Are they all wrong because they are not picketing for better maternity leave policies in the US and the right to an education in Afghanistan and the right of women to drive in Saudi Arabia and [fill in the blank here] as well as all the rest they do?

The right that we have to breastfeed has to be continually policed by us because nobody else is going to do it for us. Lactivists have their niche just as all the rest do. And actually the right to breastfeed in public has a huge bearing on efforts to combat the toxic sexual objectification of women that causes immense damage to us all, young and old, rich and poor. The fetishisation of women and all of our body parts and all of the clothes and shoes we wear has harmful effects, both physical and psychological, on all women.

The perception that most of the things we do constitute 'flaunting' of ourselves (to use a favourite DM term) to titillate and gratify men contributes to rape culture. Reminding society that boobs are for feeding babies is a much needed reality check for our society. Insisting that this purpose is not sexual and that women can do it in public and it is not 'indecent' requires frequent visible demonstrations of breastfeeding. Woman lifts top a bit, latches baby onto boob, feeds baby, world doesn't come to a screeching halt in its orbit, men learn to see women's bodies in a way that the sexualised culture we are awash in does not teach -- public breastfeeding is a positive for everyone.

The right that we have to publicly breastfeed comes directly up against all the elements of our culture that use our bodies against us. Our bodies are too thin, too fat, not tanned enough, too tanned, our faces are not made up enough, or we have gone overboard with foundation and false lashes and scouse brows, we are ageing badly, we have overdone plastic surgery, female candidates for public office are judged by their fondness for pantsuits and also by their policies (and yes, there is comment about the hair and orange skin of one particular male candidate but no others have been subjected to that scrutiny and his appearance is not causing the outright disgust that greets females whose appearance falls foul of opinion). We starve ourselves and diet and put up with workplace regulations on acceptable hair texture and wearing makeup and wearing high heels that only apply to women, whether we are the receptionist or the executive. Lactivists assert that our bodies are functional and that only a small proportion of the functions is to do with relationships with men. The world needs the reminder that our bodies are primarily for ourselves, and for our babies and children too.

Jasonandyawegunorts · 12/05/2016 19:21

Do you think women are imbeciles?
That is extremely disablist.

NarpIsNotACunt · 12/05/2016 19:21

math

I think some women are imbeciles.

NarpIsNotACunt · 12/05/2016 19:23

Jason

Sorry, I had no idea imbeciles was disablist when I repeated that. Apologies

math

Some women have no common sense, even (believe it or not) when it comes to caring for their own children

mathanxiety · 12/05/2016 19:26

Oh and yeah, we hear 'Smile, darling' from random strangers, and are offered seats in secluded places to breastfeed.

Because everything we do and also everything we do not do is apparently perfectly fine grounds for other people to stick their unwelcome noses into and instruct us, or 'make us offers'.

Jasonandyawegunorts · 12/05/2016 19:28

Math sorry jason I was so blinded fighting for one set of rights i absolutly degraded other people who have problems with equality.

Jasonandyawegunorts · 12/05/2016 19:29

That's okay Math you apology is accepted, for a moment i thought you were not going to apologise. But i see you have.

Now lets all join hands and sing Kumbaya.

Jasonandyawegunorts · 12/05/2016 19:32

I'll invite the chair along too, he could do with some friends.

Jasonandyawegunorts · 12/05/2016 19:33

No problem NarpIs

mathanxiety · 12/05/2016 19:44

So, any comments on the brochure or the photos?
Or are we just going to take cheap shots at individual terms used and continue to pour scorn on this woman based on notions of what constitutes good or bad behaviour for women that have been used to keep us in our place for centuries? Women must not rock the boat. Women must place the sensibilities of others ahead of their own needs and the needs of their babies. Etc.

If you think this woman was out plying the waves while breastfeeding then you do think she was 'monumentally stupid'. But you have no reason to suspect she was breastfeeding in the waves. The DM article states that she was in the pool, nothing more. Not where she was within the pool.

I do not automatically assume a woman who complains about being asked to go elsewhere to breastfeed is stupid in any way. The situation in the NHS hospital was outrageous. The right to breastfeed publicly specifically excludes breastfeeding from considerations of 'indecency' that were most likely at the forefront of 'offers' of a room or a seat aside from other people. So no matter how much of her breasts were visible to other people at the pool or in the hospital waiting room, she has the right to expose them while breastfeeding. (And also while posing topless or nude or in some coy almost bare fashion, obv Hmm. Because that offends no-one, right?)

Nor would I assume she was looking for attention, or trying to fund a boob job, or any of the other unkind assumptions that have been made here, apparently on the basis of a knee jerk misogynistic response to someone availing of her legal rights allied to some sort of myopic hostility to American litigiousness. I prefer to think well of other women's intentions, 'innocent until proven guilty' and all that. We need to support each other, not tear each other down. We certainly should not be responding to this event without sitting down and examining the source of our immediate responses.

tobysmum77 · 12/05/2016 19:47

The think is, Tobysmum, women who are not fairly militant are not going to face off with people who ask them to breastfeed discreetly.

But that's why there is an issue. Personally I ff both of mine but I would face of with anyone telling a woman to breastfeed discreetly. It is a feminist not lactivist issue and until it is seen as such women just trying to feed their babies are those who suffer.

Jasonandyawegunorts · 12/05/2016 19:50

So no matter how much of her breasts were visible to other people at the pool or in the hospital waiting room, she has the right to expose them while breastfeeding

Not one person in this thread has said this is a problem. You are creating an issue where there isn't one.

Asking someone if they would like a chair isn't wrong. It isn't in breach of anything and the lifeguard was well within his rights to do so.

Or are we just going to take cheap shots at individual terms used

The term used was disablist. it's not a cheap shot to pull you up where you are being offensive...

Or in your head does the equalities act only apply to breastfeeders? Hmm

Jasonandyawegunorts · 12/05/2016 19:52

We need to support each other, not tear each other down.

Hypocryte.

Jasonandyawegunorts · 12/05/2016 19:56

A life guard, whose job it is to spot possible safety issues, asked a women who was breastfeeding while the wave machine was on (which is designed to push people back) if she would like a chair next to the pool.

This is the basics of what happened.

You've added all this extra stuff on and created a whole fantasy senario.

Jasonandyawegunorts · 12/05/2016 19:57

I do not automatically assume a woman who complains about being asked to go elsewhere to breastfeed is stupid in any way

She wasn't asked to go else where, she was offered a chair next to the pool, where is this "else where".

BeckyMcDonald · 12/05/2016 20:03

if the woman in question really was offended by the offer of a chair (and clearly we don't know exactly what happened) then why did she not tell the attendant he wasn't allowed to ask her to move and then follow it up with a letter to the pool owner telling them what happened and asking them to apologise?

Trying to get 20k is just taking the piss.

And FWIW not all newspapers lie. Mine doesn't and most of the local papers in this country, which make up 92 per cent of our newspapers, are honest, engage with their communities and want to be accurate. So please don't just dismiss journalists as liars. If I came on here and said policemen are all corrupt or social workers are all child snatchers everyone would go radgie. Most of us reporters are good, honest people who have no wish to upset people or varnish the truth.

And as I've said on this thread already, I know the reporter who did the original story here and I know them to be a good journalist who writes with integrity. I've never known them to lie or get things wrong,

NeedACleverNN · 12/05/2016 20:15

Does anyone else now think math is the woman?

Because all of a sudden it's gone from being offered a chair to being asked to leave and bf in private

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